Heritage

i agree with everything you say except for your quasi-defense of the confederate flag. The confederacy conducted treason against the United States. In my book, you get no pass by claiming really, the flag is just about "heritage" distinct from treason.

To northerners, that flag means white supremacy.

This makes no sense. There is utterly no reason that the flag can'y mean the same exact thing for Northerners as it means for Southerners.

Sometimes people say the confederate flag is about "heritage, not hate". But those are not exclusive. It's the heritage _0f_ hate that makes it so unpleasent.

Give me a break. Any symbol for any sizeable movement anywhere on earth is going to be able to stand in for other stuff. Didn't someone point out recently that, in the early days, the KKK was both a terrorist organization and a provider of social services? Am I therefore seriously being asked to consider that people who show some affection for the KKK today should merely be charged with a belief in and a desire for social services?

Maybe, Al, but when you combine it with a noose and the use of the n-word, then there's really no weasel room left for Allen. The guy is clearly morally off. At that point it's entirely appropriate and necessary to attack him on the race issue, not just good politics.

As a kid growing up in Maryland (in a very liberal family) in the 70's, I though the confederate flag was cool because Bo and Luke had it on their car and they were badass rebels who played by their own rules. I knew nothing of "heritage" or "symbolism", though I did know racism was bad. I suspect a lot of folks who have stars and bars stickers on their pickup trucks don't think a whole lot about it either, other than it's a badass rebel flag for people vaguely dissatisfied with authority and gubmint, and are fairly oblivious to it's association with racists. I'm not justifying their ignorance, just sayin'.

I think Allen deserves everything he is getting, but I do have one question. I know his father coached the Washington Redskins to the super bowl in the early 70's (losing to the undefeated Dolphins in, I think, 1972?). So, did Allen live in the DC area at the time, and thus have some history in a border region of the old Confederacy?

On the broader topic of the South and the Confederacy, I think it is at least worth our while to equate the Confederacy with treason. The South is a Republican bastion, and tends toward showy patriotism. So, equating their heritage with treason sounds sort of like the Rovian strategy of hitting your opponent in their strong suit, which seems to work these days.

It's true that white Southerners aren't inherently more racist than, say, white supremicists in Idaho or even some Italian-Americans I've encountered in Brooklyn. No one group corners that market. But as Sean Wilentz shows in his masterful "The Rise of American Democracy," slavery was -- and in very real ways, remains -- our country's original sin. And white Southerners have a unique relationship to that convoluted, anguished history, as well as a singular burden to redeem that history. Just look at the political career of Bill Clinton.

As a white Southerner whose great-great-grandfather fought for the Confederacy, I believe that Southerners have a specific responsibility to speak out against the racism inherent in displays of the Confederate flag. There are vastly superior ways to celebrate the absorbing, idiosyncratic cultural history of the South. Most of those whites who now march in support of "Southern pride" live in ignorance of the South's central cultural accomplishment: its peerless literary tradition. Most Southerners have never read Faulkner, O'Connor, Gaines, or McCarthy. I'd argue that they should spend less time defending a symbol of racism and treason and more time learning the complex, painful truths found in the works of their most enduring writers.

Maybe, Al, but when you combine it with a noose and the use of the n-word, then there's really no weasel room left for Allen.

Not true at all. If people of Southern heritage use the n-word, then Allen using the n-word simply means he's showing respect for Southern heritage just as hanging up the Confederate flag shows he's respecting Southern heritage. Just people YOU don't respect Southern heritage doesn't mean others can't.

It's hard to believe that a highly successful NFL head coach in the modern era could also have been a racist. I guess Allen gets it from his mother.

As for the flag, the Confederacy was treasonous of course, but most of the people who fought for it were just regular people who thought their first duty was to their locale. Which is understandable. Are members of the ETA traitors? How about the Chechens? Yes on some level of abstraction, but I don't think anyone really thinks of them that way. I have no problem with denigrating the Confederacy as an institution, but apart from the technical legal sense, it's pretty obviously unfair to pin the traitor label on the regular Southerners who fought in the army, which is what you do in practice when you focus on the flag instead of on the government. People are pretty much the same everywhere, they were just doing what anyone else would have done under the historical circumstances.

If people of Southern heritage use the n-word, then Allen using the n-word simply means he's showing respect for Southern heritage

No comment to add here; just needed to see that one again.

How many Als are there, anyway?

There's no conceivable a white person living in California would adopt the symbol in the 1960s other than to affiliate himself with the resistance to the civil rights movement.

Well, but that person's a teenager, and teenagers are not exactly known for exploring all the significance of something before they adopt it because it seems cool or will piss off their folks. I don't know if hoity-toity prep schools are like this, but I remember the kids who sat in the back of the class carving anarchy symbols on the desks without a clue what anarchy meant, or the girls who thought they were wiccans because they were all like deep and mopey and watched Buffy and maybe they were vegetarians and didn't much like other people (and then the guys who decided they were wiccans, too, to get laid....)

I don't have any intention to defend Allen--there's a broader pattern here including stuff he did later in life when he damn well should have known better--but it's just goofy to get all that worked up about stupid identity games someone played as a teenager.

FWIW, So.Cal. was chock-full of Confederate sympathizers during the civil war -- and during the Civil War at one point, over the Cali state capitol, a stars and bars flag, with stars for all the border states (including Cali) as well as the AZ territory, was flown.

I doubt that Allen would be so aware of the history of his own "homeland", but it is conceivable that a So.Cal. native would have an "attachment" to the Stars and Bars. Of course, the reason why you'd be pro-Southern in So.Cal. was because you were a ranchero running something tantimount to a plantation. Not that the Unionists were so liberal -- they were the likes of Stanford, et al., who supported the Union cause because they wanted to make this country into an industrial rather than agricultural plantation, which required different sorts of tarrif policies, etc. ...

So, did Allen live in the DC area at the time, and thus have some history in a border region of the old Confederacy?

He went to UVA at the same time his father went to the Redskins. Before that, he'd lived in California and Chicago, and apparently picked up his prediliction for cowboy boots and dipping in the southwest. So, no: he arrived in Charlottesville in 1971 thinking it was 1951, as a pre-formed self-made Dixieland Gatsby.

The confederate flag does not represent the antebellum south or general notions of antebellum southern culture. The confederate flag was first used in 1863 and represents the cause of the south during the civil war. What was the southern cause during the civil war? what was the ideal the south was fighting for?

legalized slavery

This is a repugnant idea and maintaining the flag as a positive symbol is repugnant.

Never mind that the Confederates were literally traitors. Sheesh. People got get it over it and grow up.

It is important to bring out the truth in people's feelings towards other races and ethnicities. If Senator Allen really does have all of this hatred toward everyone who is not European American then we have a serious problem and need to get Jim Webb elected (actually let's just get him elected regardless). I know that Faithful Democrats is talking about race as well as an important issue of torture. Check it out.

How many Als are there, anyway?

Two, today.

The Confederate (battle) flag represents to me (a) Treason and (b) Racism. Both. Lest we forget: the Confederacy did its best to destroy the United States of America.

My whole family is from Richmond, VA, and I've lived there a couple of times, briefly, working on theater projects and the like. I've never been able to understand the whole love of the Confederacy thing. Maybe it's because I'm a Jew and Richmond had housing codes for a really long time. Maybe it's because I'm a DC raised liberal from an interracial family. Who knows?

Matt, you're wrong about one thing in this post. The Confederate Flag, like the song "Dixie" (originating in NYC in a minstrel show) is inherently racist, and affection for it means on some level affection for the inherently racist past of the South. You don't see a lot of non-neo-Nazi Germans talking about how the Nazi flag is an important part of their cultural "heritage", do you? If they had inslaved Jews in the South, would you really be making that argument?

People I've met down there, from all social classes and walks of life... if they have an affection for the Confederate Flag tend to have a deep deep resentment for the Federal Government and an inherent sense that they are still (somehow) fighting the Civil War. The whold idea that "the South Will Rise Again" or that Dixie should be sung at important events. There is also a denial of the South's legacy of racism (I know the North has one too, but it's a different one, and we should reckon with that one more, but that's not actually really germane to what we're talkign about here), an attempt to make it either "not that bad" or "not what the war between the states was really about". There is also a fear and hatred of black people, who "don't know their place anymore" and might come rob your house and rape your wife.

This is the mentality that has deep affection for that flag, and is proud of fighting in a shameful war. I have anscestors who fought in the civil war. I have ancestors who owned slaves. I also have relatives who liked killing Indians. It is something to be reckoned with, and not denied, and examined, but not something to be proud of, or to view somehow as a venerated heritage.

This is a repugnant idea and maintaining the flag as a positive symbol is repugnant.

I don't think anyone disagrees with this. The question is whether it makes you an unusually terrible person if you don't see it. And the answer is that it doesn't. It's just human nature - human beings everywhere have the tendency to react to justifiable criticism of the groups that they come from with defensiveness instead of generosity of spirit and looking at the merits of the criticism from the point of view of others. The flag is wrong but the right anti-flag argument is "Let's give up the flag because it hurts your fellow Americans," not "Anyone who supports the flag is a dirty racist and should hang their heads in shame." The second argument is (a) just wrong, and (b) you can rest assured that almost anytime you ever tell people to hang their heads in shame, no matter what about, they will not.

Anyway, this is all off topic. The point of the post was whether Allen is a racist, not whether everyone else with a confederate flag bumper sticker is a racist. And he is.

"The confederacy conducted treason against the United States. In my book, you get no pass by claiming really, the flag is just about "heritage" distinct from treason."

This is really anachronistic; it was a *Civil War,* after all, because people violently disagreed about whether their ultimate loyalty was to the Union or to their state. As historians of the question [say, Kenneth Stampp or David Potter] will tell you, that issue simply wasn't settled as of 1860; the concept of a perpetual Union, as opposed to an alliance of convenience, was a gradual and uneven development, never embodied in agreed-upon law, and clever lawyers could, and did, spin special-pleading theories on both sides to their own satisfaction. Also, note that no one was ever actually *convicted* of treason, or even brought to trial; the legal issues proved just too murky. The side that deemed the Confederacy treasonous just won the war--that's all. [And note that this is not a "pro-Confederate" position; special pleading was rampant on both sides].

The Confederate cause was certainly a proslavery cause, and that alone is enough to justify consigning the flag to the dustbin of history [Though even here the Union didn't have clean hands, having been a slaveholders' flag for the proverbial four score and seven--and beyond]--along with its disgraceful history as an emblem of white supremacy up to the present. But it's really getting a bit late to be rehashing the polemics of the 1850s and 1860s as if they really meant anything today. Can anybody seriously believe that George Allen's taste for the Confederate battle flag indicates sympathy with treason? Or that the typical Confederate-flag loving white southerner isn't simultaneously a superpatriot, even a jingo? White southerners have long been accused of wanting to refight the Civil War; it's really bizarre to see *nonsoutherners* wanting to refight it.

Can anybody seriously believe that George Allen's taste for the Confederate battle flag indicates sympathy with treason? Or that the typical Confederate-flag loving white southerner isn't simultaneously a superpatriot, even a jingo?

Have you sean what they've done to our notions of due process? An American citizen held indefinitely and without recourse in jail on the President's say so? In the face of unbelievably trivial risks, by historical standards? Looks pretty anti-American to me.

Or that the typical Confederate-flag loving white southerner isn't simultaneously a superpatriot, even a jingo?

But this observation only shows how contingent and conditional their supposed patriotism is. They are patriots, yet they are capable of waxing nostalgic about a rebellion immediately precipitated upon nothing more than the election of Lincoln. This provisional patriotism extends to the present era: of course they are patriotic now that their faction is in power. But as soon as a Democrat is elected president, you'll hear the same mantra as in 1992 and 1996: "Not my president".

Can anybody seriously believe that George Allen's taste for the Confederate battle flag indicates sympathy with treason? Or that the typical Confederate-flag loving white southerner isn't simultaneously a superpatriot, even a jingo? White southerners have long been accused of wanting to refight the Civil War; it's really bizarre to see *nonsoutherners* wanting to refight it.

What do we do then with the Souther Strategy's reliance on hatred of the Federeal Government? Where does that resentment stem from? Nowhere? No, it comes from the 19th century. From the Civil War.

It's hard to believe that a highly successful NFL head coach in the modern era could also have been a racist. - JP

Uh...no, it's not.

David:

That's selective history. The Southern States made a deal in 1789. The terms of the deal were that they would get various anti-egalitarian features built into the government-- the 3/5ths compromise, the electoral college, and the composition of the Senate-- and in return, they would agree to bind themselves to a tighter union than that which was created by the Articles of Confederation.

This deal held until Lincoln got elected. The South, having lost an election, threw a tantrum and decided that they did not have any loyalty to the union, and broke its agreement. In technical terms, the South levied war against the United States which its leaders had sworn allegiance to. That is treason as it is defined in the Constitution.

There are political reasons why the rebels were not prosecuted for treason. (Mainly, that while the South lost the war, it won the post-war and the South was never "de-confederified" the way that Germany was "denazified" after World War II.) But it should be made clear that the Fourteenth Amendment was enacted with provisions that make absolutely clear that what the South engaged in was treason, and northerners who attempted to join the Confederate cause during the war certainly were treated as traitors.

The bottom line is, the North abided with many elections that brought pro-slavery Southerners like James Buchanan to the White House. The South decided that it would rather fire on Fort Sumter and start a war than abide by the results of an election. That's treason.

Also, the Civil War definitely WAS about slavery. Remember, the REASON for the secession was that Lincoln was not going to allow slavery in the territories. As a result, the South faced the potential that at some point in the future, new states would be admitted that would threaten the South's ability to preserve slavery. So they seceded to save the slave system. Any Southerner who denies this is rewriting history. (The reason that myths persist is, again, that the South won the post-war and got to teach its history in a way that the Nazis, for instance, were not permitted to after WW2.)

I saw a pickup the other day flying the US flag above one side of the bed and the Confederate battle flag on the other. Talk about a person with a confused sense of history. He was totally unaware of the irony. And I believe the correct term for people like Allen is carpet-bagger. :) And no, the flag is not about mint juleps and hoop skirts. It's the battle flag of a force that fought the United States government in a war that Colonel John Singleton Mosby, the Gray Ghost, said was fought totally on the issue of slavery, and he ought to know. The South is much better off because this institution, enshrined in the Constitution, was done away with. I believe that the Kennedy and Johnson administrations did the South another favor by forcing the end of legalized segregation. I attended segregated schools from the first grade through college, and that "separate but equal" claim was a lie.

George Allen faces another challenge in addition to these (admittedly dubious) racial-slur allegations. It's now come out that he's Jewish, which might not go over well with some of the Christian fundamentalists that wield so much influence in the Republican Party.

I guess the whole good thing about this is how far Virginia has come within 15 years. In the early 90s Allen's rascism was plain too but no one dealt with it because it wuldn't hurt him and in fact would help him. But now that NoVa has become more important we might have a end to the days where there are massive protest about Arthur Ashe daring to desecrate the heros of the Confederacy by having a statue in Richmond.

Perhaps you've never watched football, brooksfoe.

And no, the flag is not about mint juleps and hoop skirts.

Of course it's not. Northern women wore those abominable contraptions, too, and they wouldn't have been possible without northern industries like steel and whaling....

"I guess the whole good thing about this is how far Virginia has come within 15 years"

Immigration rather than attitude change, isn't it? All those beltway types in bedroom communities. That's the answer to the South. Instead of going Ann Coulter on them ("invade their countries etc...") the Yankees just move on down. Global warming makes for tough summers, but y'all just need to think of 80 all winter.

Y'all are more than welcome to come to Texas.

The Confederate flag carries with it all the burdens of the South's culture of grievance. Not just racism. The seed germ of Southern grievance was the Civil War and Reconstruction, but the culture of grievance metastasized, infecting everything else. The last serious intellectuals who believed that crap about non-racist Southern virtues (The Fugitives) ditched that pose in the 1950s. They did what anyone with an ounce of sense did then: they left. Witness Joe Frazier:

-When did you leave for The North?
-As soon as I found out that it wasn't The South.

(from memory)

The so-called 'Stars and Bars,' 'Confederate Flag' or 'Rebel Flag' was never flown by the Confederate government but was the battle flag of Robert E Lee's army. After the war veterans groups in the South adopted this flag as their symbol specifically to honor their military experience without honoring secession or the Confederate government. The veterans used it in parades and such, which made it a familiar symbol in the South and it became associated with the 'Lost Cause' sentimentalizing of the Civil War.

The modern KKK was founded in 1915 and used the Rebel flag and the American flag in their marches. As the original veterans got old and died and the KKK rose in prominence the flag became associated with the Klan, and through them, White Supermacy, though of course the racism of the Confederacy always made that meaning close to hand for those who wanted it.

The 100th anniversary of the Civil War coincided with the toughest period of the Civil Rights Movement. Many Southern state governments began to fly the Rebel flag or added it to their existing flags ostensibly as a rememberance of the anniversary, but of course, since they didn't fly any actual flag of the CSA, but instead the flag now associated with the KKK, it is obvious the real purpose was to broadcast defiance of integration under the guise of heritage.

This is not widely known among Southern whites. The decline of the Klan, the South's deliberate amnesia re Jim Crow, and the continuance of those flags in state capitals has meant many white people in the South grow up thinking of the Rebel flag as a mere symbol of Southernness, part of good o' boy kitsch, as used in the Dukes of Hazard and country music. Many Southern whites also have ancestors who bequeathed them pictures and heirlooms of the veterans' groups, reinforcing the neutral meaning that they are predisposed to see in the Rebel flag. Southern blacks meanwhile generally retain vivid community and individual memories of the former strength of the KKK and the intransigent, violent white resistance to integration painfully brought to mind by the same symbol.

I'm perpetually amazed by this Confederate flag thing.

The South committed treason, became enemy to the United States of America, then was defeated in a blood drenched war. Why would anyone fly that flag? Would anyone in its right mind fly the red Hammer and Sickle(*) ?

If Southerners want a symbol, they need to pick something else.

(*) And least, the Soviets did not pretend to be American.

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