Pen Pals

I'm pretty sure Florid'a age o' consent is 16, so the only knock on Foley would be garden-variety sexual harassment (if that), rather than pedophilia.

Why would it be sexual harassment?

Florida's age of consent is 18.

From the emails I've seen on Raw Story, the emails don't come anywhere close to breaking any law. Pretty tame stuff.

Foley is certainly guilty, however, of bad judgment and all-around creepiness.

Matt--

I read Justin Rood's story about Mark Foley at TPMmuckraker, and it had links to three of the e-mails. Rood quoted the kid as saying the e-mails were sick sick sick sick sick, so of course I expected something steamy. But what I found were normal things an older person might ask a teen-ager: What is your age, what do you like to do? (Old fogies don't know necessarily know such things without asking.)

If there's nothing more to it than that, I think you ought to back off this particular juicy item.

Yours Very Truly,
Hugh Hagius

Hugh,

What about requesting a picture? That doesn't just seem like a "normal thing an older person might ask a teen-ager." These emails don't amount to much more than, as Hank states, a general sense of "all-around creepiness." Still, perhaps there is more behind them. In any case, a general sense of all-around creepiness can't be too helpful to a congressional campaign in an election year.

The fact that the teenager viewed the emails as "sick" suggests that there's some sort of pre-existing creepy vibe here.

Anyway, I find it bizarre in the extreme that anyone could read these emails and say that they sound like completely normal correspondence between a middle-aged Congressman and a former employee. Yeah, if you got introduced to a teenager, you might ask a question or two along these lines to strike up a conversation. But hello, that's not the context!

Wow. How 'bout that. I grew up in Florida, and the whole time, I thought the age of consent was 16.

Here is the portion of the Florida statute that has everyone confused:

A person 24 years of age or older who engages in sexual activity with a person 16 or 17 years of age commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this section, "sexual activity" means oral, anal, or vaginal penetration by, or union with, the sexual organ of another; however, sexual activity does not include an act done for a bona fide medical purpose.

So yeah, 16 is the age of consent... if the other party is under 24. Otherwise it's 18.

Of course, the Congressman didn't engage in any sexual act, or propose same, but to be clear, it would absolutely be a felony for him to hook up with this minor.

who are the other "widely-rumored-to-be-gay" politicians? Is there like a database somewhere?

Barney Franks, redux.

How is his possibly being gay "the crucial context"? The conduct in question here is not homosexuality, it is child abuse. His behavior is no more or less suspect than it would be if he were known to be straight. Would a gay male congressman who sent the same emails to a 16-year old girl be off the hook?

I grew up in Florida, and the whole time, I thought the age of consent was 16.
Charming.

But bobbo's right: the scandal is sexual harassment and age-related ickiness. It isn't that Foley was propositioning a teenage male.

I think the reason his purported homosexuality is the "crucial context" is that it demonstrates that the emails are more likely to be a sexual come-on.

Many who are unaware that Foley is rumored to be gay, might assume that the emails could not be sexual in nature because Foley is heterosexual. The added context provides further support that they shouldn't merely be viewed as just weird comments, but sexual ones.

I'm sorry, Brian, but I don't agree that Foley's conduct would be acceptable if he were straight. The propriety of the conduct does not hinge on his sexuality; it hinges on his intent, which at this point is unknown. The fact that he may be gay does not answer the question of intent. Even if he were straight, that still wouldn't answer the question of intent.

bobbo,

I think you misunderstood my post. Clearly, the propriety of Foley's conduct hinges on his intent. His sexuality provides a crucial context into what his intent likely was. That is my point.

If Foley were heterosexual and sent the exact same emails to a female page it would be equally concerning. However, if Foley is heterosexual (and here, I'm drawing heterosexual and homosexual as clear black and white distinctions) then his intent necessarily was not sexual and therefore not nearly as concerning.

Understand my point now?

Put differently, Bobbo, the point of ambiguity was not whether sending sexual emails to pages is creepy. It clewarly is, regardless of the sender.

The question is whether or not the email sent was sexual. An email sent to a male by a heterosexual male is almost by definition not sexual. An email sent by a homosexual male to another male could possibly be sexual.

So Foley's purported homosexuality helps us to understand whether or not the email was sexual.

Is there like a database somewhere?

Loook in Wikipedia under s-m-e-a-r.

There may well be a correlation between attraction to adult males and attraction to teenage boys, but one should be careful not to conflate the two.

If Foley were on record as being 100% confirmed straight, the logical conclusion from these emails would still be that he has a creepy thing for teenage boys.

This could be completely innocent--and I honestly hope it is. But even if it is, it seems like a profoundly stupid thing for Foley to have done.

DC's age of consent is 16.

Any judgment declaring Foley completely innocent, or 'sick sick sick' is WAY premature. Taken by themselves, those emails give us very little to go by.

Here's the key point:

If the content & tone we see in these snippets really is standard fare for emails between Foley and past pages/interns, then all he need do is prove it by producing similar correspondence with others...

The man's been in Congress for 12 years, elected office for even longer. There must be a long line of past pages/interns who could provide us with exonerating emails showing that this is quite normal to ask these things. If what he says is true then let's see those two dozen emails from past pages white, black, male, female, old, and young...(ok, probably not old.)

Any judgment declaring Foley completely innocent, or 'sick sick sick' is WAY premature.

'sick sick sick' was the judgment of the teenager in question. He's probably in a position to make a more informed judgment about the creepiness vel non of the Congressman than we are, actually.

Someone needs to point out that whether or not Foley was attracted to the kid in kind of a creepy, old-guy way is a very, very, very different question from whether he was actually trying to start some kind of sexual relationship with the kid. The young man was no longer working for Foley, so this isn't a matter of on-the-job sexual harassment (though I imagine that it's important, career-wise, for a former page to stay in the good graces of his congressman, so those concerns aren't totally absent). But sending somewhat flirty e-mails to someone with whom it would be inappropriate to have a sexual relationship is not, and shouldn't be, any kind of major scandal. Most of us have sent an e-mail or two that, in retrospect, has some overtones we aren't super thrilled with.

Why should Foley be sending emails to a former page at all? I worked as an intern for Reid in college, and I met the guy once, to have my picture taken, in the entire two months I worked there. I would imagine, although I'm not certain, that context between members and pages is even less, under normal circumstances (although, admittedly, we probably had less contact with our senator than most interns do).

I'd like to know more about context, but on its face this seems pretty creepy.

It seems to me that the relevant age-of-consent law would be that of DC, not of FL, since the issue arose in emails regarding a former congressional page. Since the page was a former page it is unclear whether there would be any sexual harrassment issue. It would be different if he were a current page. But Foley's email requests do sound more than a bit strange.

For future reference, the age of consent laws--for US states and foreign countries--are summarized here.

His emails don't sound "strange" or "creepy". They sound early-stage flirtatious. Age inappropriate and homosexual, yes, but "strange"? The kid's 16, right? Not exactly heaven's dewiest flower, and a bit beyond the point where the it's a shattering discovery that there are ACs and DCs in the sexual world. If it weren't for the Rep's supposed closeted nature and his party affiliation this wouldn't even be getting discussed.

A middle-aged man clumsily hitting on a 16 year old - of whatever sex - is creepy.

For all of those claiming there's nothing here, move along please, commenter Bruce over at Gilliard's hypothesized the following scenario:

"I am a 37 year-old straight man. I take a fascination with a 10th grade volunteer or student worker at my law office, comment on the body of her girlfriend from the field hockey team, ask for pix, ask about birthday and what I can buy her.

If her parents are upper middle class, I get fired and maybe a Bar complaint. If they are rednecks, it's the 19 year old brother on my front porch with leather gloves and a fucking tire iron."

How can anyone seriously claim that a GOP congressman flirting with an underage aide of the same sex via e-mail isn't scandal material? Sure, it's not domestic wiretapping or secret prisons--which means it's the kind of scandal people actually seem to pay attention to. And it's certain to make Foley's base think twice, whether there's anything to it or not.

I think we would need to see evidence that Foley has sent similarly innocuous follow-up e-mails to aides of both sexes to buy the claim that this was his routine friendliness. And I'm sorry, but the explanation that Foley is simply "too friendly and engaging" with young people sounds even worse for him.

Should adults be able to have friendly conversations with young people without instantly raising concerns about molestation? Obviously. Should a congressman dogged by gay rumors have been writing to a 16-year-old boy about what awesome shape his friend was in, how much he likes to exercise, asking what kind of "stuff" he liked to do and offering to buy him presents? Not unless he's a complete fucking idiot.

'sick sick sick' was the judgment of the teenager in question. He's probably in a position to make a more informed judgment about the creepiness vel non of the Congressman than we are, actually.

OK, well, that may be so, but then why did the email snippets the kid release not directly back up that claim? They sound a bit unusual, yes, but there could be a perfectly reasonable story behind them. I'll bet everyone has said/done things that, if taken COMPLETELY out of context could be construed way different from their original intent.

Again, this could all be cleared up in an instant if Foley can produce similar emails sent to other staffers.

Bottom line is the words 'sick sick sick' sound like hyperbolic paranoia in the context of these particular email snippets. Kids these days are bombarded with warnings about sexual predation. One possible explanation is that this is a kid with poor judgment, pre-programmed to cry wolf, who's looking for a little attention - as we all did at 16 years old.

Again - let's see ALL correspondence between the two, let's see FULL emails, and lets see if there's similar emails to others before we pass judgment. I'm inclined to give a Congressman the benefit of the doubt over some spoiled teenager. (But it sure would be juicy if I'm wrong!)

"I'm inclined to give a Congressman the benefit of the doubt" may be the funniest thing i've read in weeks. Because God knows they've all earned it, especially over the past few years.

And your evidence that this is "some spoiled teenager" comes from where?

There have been December/May romances before. Saul Bellow. Tony Randall. Fred Astaire.

What a world. There's nobody stranger than people.

For sake of future Googlers of this thread, Congressman Foley has apparently submitted his resignation after ABC News found some sexually explicit IMs the Congressman sent to minors.

Let's also make that for the sake of the "Oh, I'm sure this is perfectly innocent" conservatives in the audience who are hereby invited to suck it. In a non-sexually explicit way, of course.

This reminds me of the Gerry Studds case. I'm not going to be ashamed of my home state based only on one incident, especially when I don't even live in that district, but it makes me sick that Studds actually had intercourse with a page (which no one has yet accused Foley of doing, although it certainly wouldn't shock me if it happened), refused to resign, and WAS RE-ELECTED SIX MORE TIMES AFTERWARDS. At least Foley has demonstrated some class by resigning.

I wasn't making a judgment either way, and that was exactly the point. Until there was something more than a few fishy sentences extracted from emails, there was simply not enough to send the guy to the gallows. Now that we have a broader picture, IM's talking about genitalia etc (plus the resignation) I now feel comfortable excoriating the guy. But that doesn't take away from the idea that people are still innocent until proven guilty. Even Republicans. Even Congressmen...no matter how funny you may find it.

And your evidence that this is "some spoiled teenager" comes from where?
I'm generalizing of course, based on the principle that teenagers who work in Congressional offices normally come from well-heeled and well-connected families ...sons and daughters of big donors etc. So, yeah, some spoiled teenager seems like a not unfair generalization. Spoiled until proven unspoiled.

The real question now is...is this seat now in play? It wasn't before. The Dem in the general election is Mahoney, who is an ex-Republican. Will Jeb appoint a replacement? Will that replacement get to run in November?

Wow, what a shocker. What kind of sleazy idiot would do what Foley did? Did he think he'd never get caught? Jeez. Foley was a possible candidate for Senate and I think a lot of Republicans were upset when he didn't run. Funny how that turned out.

So question 1 is what does this do to the election in that district? Can Foley be replaced on the ballot? Or is this one of those Tom Delay deals?

The Democrat in the race is a guy named Tim Mahoney:
http://www.timmahoneyforflorida.com/e3/index.php

Given the turn in the story, veryfineline, continuing to cast aspirsions on the boy who turned over the e-mails seems odd, to say the least. The kid's character has less than nothing to do with this. Foley's character, we now know, has everything to do with it.

And it sounds like Foley is stuck on the ballot, so the seat now leans Dem pretty strongly.

This reminds me of the Gerry Studds case. I'm not going to be ashamed of my home state based only on one incident, especially when I don't even live in that district, but it makes me sick that Studds actually had intercourse with a page (which no one has yet accused Foley of doing, although it certainly wouldn't shock me if it happened), refused to resign, and WAS RE-ELECTED SIX MORE TIMES AFTERWARDS. At least Foley has demonstrated some class by resigning.

But remember, IOKIYAD.

Dateline just had a report about his AIM messages to a paige that included such phrases as "good so your getting horny," "did any girl give you a haandjob this weekend" and "i am never too busy [to jerk off] haha." Here is the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG1SDKRU3Vc

Here is the Wonkette post that mentions some of the censored stuff:

http://www.wonkette.com/politics/mark-foley/foley-on-abc-204362.php

When Foley heard Dateline had the AIM messages, he promptly resigned.

Thanks
Best regards
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