Torture as Investigation
Investigation is a subtle process, requiring patience and fine analytical ability, as well as a skill in cultivating one's sources. When torture is condoned, these rare talented people leave the service, having been outstripped by less gifted colleagues with their quick-fix methods, and the service itself degenerates into a playground for sadists. Thus, in its heyday, Joseph Stalin's notorious NKVD (the Soviet secret police) became nothing more than an army of butchers terrorizing the whole country but incapable of solving the simplest of crimes. And once the NKVD went into high gear, not even Stalin could stop it at will. He finally succeeded only by turning the fury of the NKVD against itself; he ordered his chief NKVD henchman, Nikolai Yezhov (Beria's predecessor), to be arrested together with his closest aides.
It goes on, including tales of Bukovsky's own experiences as a victim of Soviet torture and deserves to be read in its entirety. But this here is essentially the key point at hand. While you can obviously imagine or gerrymander or stipulate a situation in which torture might yield useful information, in practice the systematic authorization of torture creates an army of butchers, not a crack investigative team. Bush, Cheney, and those around them remind me of Nietzsche's line about staring too long into the abyss. They've become transfixed, hypnotized almost, by the evils they believe themselves to be fighting. Obsessed to the point where they've clearly developed an admiration for the brutal methods, ruthless dishonesty, and utter secrecy with which the enemies of liberalism conduct themselves.
But these things they're so eager -- determined, really -- to cast aside aren't frivolous luxury to be abandonned in times of peril. They're the very essence of what makes our system of government work. They're what makes it worth preserving, as a matter of ethics, but also as a matter of practice vital to the preservation of our way of life. Liberal democracy isn't a fluke occurrence that just so happens to have survived despite its drawbacks. It's actually a superior method of organizing a state. The idea that the country is being run by people who don't understand that is sad and frightening. The idea that the very same people claim to be embarked upon a grand mission to spread our system of government around the world is like a horrible tawdry joke, but doubly frightening in its own way.
Comments
If liberalism is a technology rather than a consciousness, then it is the rare technology that is willfully abandoned. The implication for a technology that can be deliberately abandoned is that the technology is not adequate to its purpose, or not cost effective.
Unleashing the Beast
Digby on the same source and subject.
To be clear, I am not above defending the Bush administration, but calculating and contemplating the appropriate response.
After much reflection, I think the Dems must come out clearly and aggressively against the torture compromise. If we lose the election, so be it. It's that important, as Matt's post makes clear. Give me liberty or give me a congressional minority.
I can imagine a case where I might have to steal a car, but that doesn't mean stealing cars should be legal.
A few commentators have mentioned that torture deforms a society as a whole, but few have mentioned that torture creates actual monsters. I'm glad you pointed this out.
You give Cheney and Bush far too much credit when you go into that "They became what they beheld" song and dance. Cheney in particular has always aspired to the tools of totalitarianism. It's the practice of democracy he despises
I have a friend who is a fundamentalist Christian, who believes that a benevolent dictatorship is the optimal form of government. Apparently this belief is based on an analogy to the relationship between God and his subjects. I couldn't disagree more. I think, as Matt suggests, that a well functioning democracy provides for the kinds of feedback that actually cause it to work better than dictatorships, even benevolent ones.
I've read a lot of World War II history, and have always been struck by how much better the leadership in America and Britain was compared to the Axis powers and Soviet Union. There just seems to have been more vetting of and open discussion about decisions. I suppose this could be a certan amount of historical bias in the books I've read, though.
"I've read a lot of World War II history, and have always been struck by how much better the leadership in America and Britain"
A "fighting liberalism" that lasted until the early 70s, I think. An important data point. Later liberalism was willing to fight wars abroad, and defend the country to the extent politically necessary, but did not scare its internal enemies. And still obviously doesn't scare Bush or Cheney.
OK, it is about time the lesson was learned. If the left tries to disarm, pulls back from overseas engagements, tries a multilateral institutionalism, America will get an authoritarian militaristic dictatorship. I don't even know if the question is interesting anymore, because I don't know that we are getting out of this one.
Bob,
"Pulling back from overseas engagements" and "trying a multilateral institutionalism" are not the same thing. And multilateral institutionalism was pretty much what that "fighting liberalism" was fighting for.
"And multilateral institutionalism was pretty much what that "fighting liberalism" was fighting for."
But they did it with a million-man army. I don't want the multilateralism to substitute for that, even if it would work better. But your point is good.
I met Bukovsky on a few occasions about twenty-five years when I worked for a lecture agency that represented him.
Let me mention this without any equivocation: Bukovsky is about as thoroughly right-wing as they come. He supported the Contra War in the 1980's, for example. I mention only in the event that anyone tries to paint him as left-wing. He most assuredly is not.
But he is a victim of torture and he is a consistent voice aagaints it and having experience it first hand speaks against it most eloquently.
In my experience, the view that a benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government is fairly widespread. For a certain definition, I suppose it's true, but it's based on the fallacy of affirmation of the consequent. "A good dictatorship is good, because we already specified that it was good when we called it a 'good dictatorship.'" Basically, it's circular reasoning that could equally well be applied to a benevolent democracy, benevolent anarchy, etc.
Before asserting that "Liberal democracy ... [is] actually a superior method of organizing a state," though, one must ask, "for whom?" Liberal democracy would not have been a superior way of organizing the state of Zaire for Mobutu Sese Seko in achieving his objectives, nor a superior way of organizing the state of the Philippines for Ferdinand and Imelda. Liberal democracy may create stronger nations as a whole, but is that the objective of those so eager to reject it?
Why oh why do people who should know better get seduced into debating the utility of things like torture?
Matt, your argument is besides the point. It's interesting, I suppose, to learn that permitting torture rapidly degrades the effectiveness of a police force. But so what? The fact that torture doesn't work and leads to incompetence isn't the point. Suppose it did work. Suppose it made police better at solving crimes. Would that make it acceptable?
The reason torture is banned by all civilized countries is that it is immoral according to any value system of any worth, religious or "secular." That it doesn't work, that it leads to an increase in unsolved crimes - these are poor arguments, as many arguments from utility are. At best they are trivial arguments compared to the fact that torture assaults the very meaning of what it means to be a human being.
Find examples closer to home
Americans find denial too easy when you push on them comparisons of this Republican political machine to dramatically evil political machines like that of the Soviet Union or Germany under the National Socialists. Most Americans won't accept such comparisons until it's too late to avert the evil, until the potential for evil has been actualized in numbers imprisoned and numbers killed approaching the Holocaust and the Gulag. Even if there were not the question of the direct effects of moralistic narcissism ("Americans couldn't possibly do such things!"), an important part of the moralistic grandstanding the national mytholoigy indulges in when it remembers the Third Reich and the Evil Empire, is the idea that we were so moral that we rejected evil means, such as torture and the other means of totalitarian control, despite the practical advantage that they supposedly conferred on those, like the Nazis and Soviets, who lack our fine scruples. It wouldn't have been such a hard struggle to defeat the Axis, or worldwide Communism, had the dastards not cheated. Yes, that is Bukovsky's main argument, that these totalitarian means are actually the opposite of effective, and it is a much sounder way of arguing than appeals to disinterested moralism. But it's an uphill slog directly contradicting the national mythology of "The Good War" and "The Greatest Generation", and our struggle against the "Evil Empire".
Start with more humble examples nearer to home. We've had political machines in this country, in many cities and sometimes even whole states, and in the not too distant past. The common memory of them is that the shortcuts they indulged in, like police forces that tended to just beat confessions out of "the usual suspects" rather than actually expend the effort to solve crimes, were the opposite of efficient at anything but maintaining themselves in power. No, we haven't had a political machine at the national level, until now. But imagine if Huey Long had had the US Army, the CIA, NSA and FBI to play around with, instead of just the Louisiana State Police? Most Americans could make that leap of imagination, even if they won't accept a direct comparison of Bush to Stalin or Hitler.
I always thought that there's a great study to be made of the college courses on authoritarian and totalitarian societies that these clowns took when they were young. It's as if they were paying so little attention that the lessons on the Politburo and the Gestapo merged with the lessons on the Supreme Court and the Pinkertons.
Beside Nietzsche there's also the old saying, "Choose your enemies wisely -- they are what you become."
Let's not overreact now. It's not immoral to apply pressure to a limited set of terrorist suspects. "Torture" will only be applied to a narrow set of terrorist cases. It won't be used on common criminal cases, nor on enemy soldiers who uphold the Geneva Conventions. And all the permitted techniques are those we already use on our own soldiers, in special forces training, etc.; death, mutilation, and rape are forbidden. And the available techniques don't necessarily have to be used, but are a backup (or used to put pressure on a terrorist being questioned) when someone trained to resist interrogation doesn't respond, and the cost of not getting the information is high.
LiberalAtWar,
Torture is torture. It doesn't stop being torture because you put quotes around it. As for backup, puhleeze. When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
And all the permitted techniques are those we already use on our own soldiers, in special forces training, etc.; death, mutilation, and rape are forbidden.
Irrelevant. The letter of the law is not what's important here. What's important is the spirit of it - in other words, the fact that the Bush Administration is legitimizing any kind of torture is more important than the fact that rape is not permitted.
And the available techniques don't necessarily have to be used, but are a backup (or used to put pressure on a terrorist being questioned) when someone trained to resist interrogation doesn't respond, and the cost of not getting the information is high
You mean like the "ticking time bomb" scenario that only happens on 24? The scenario that's been discredited by pretty much every antiterrorism professional out there?
The definition of torture is important. You like to use that word to discredit the Bush Administration. Yet the interrogators do have to know how much pressure to apply on their captives.
The equation of "torture" such as playing loud rock music or showing gay porn videos to captive jihadists, to the true inhumanity meted out on the victims of the Argentine military regime, of Stalin in the 1930s, or Germany in the 1940s, is overwrought.
Once in a while in the news, you see a report saying that an al Qaeda leader has been captured due to "intelligence". You don't have to be a "24" viewer to know that sometimes this intelligence isn't obtained by asking friendly questions of your prisoners.
Shorter LiberalAtWar:
Let's not overreact now. The water's only getting a bit warm.
Let's not overreact now. The water's only halfway to boiling.
Let's not overreact now. The water's only starting to steam....
"First, they breached the Bill of Rights to get terrorists, and I
did not object because I was not a terrorist. Then they did it
to get Muslims, and I did not object because I was not a Muslim.
Then they did it to get me, and [CENSORED BY HOMELAND SECURITY]
I'm sure that once our torturers are told that rape and mutilation are off limits, they'll think of something else appropriately demonic.
There are ways to make a man foreswear his God, sacrifice his own children, or sincerely swear to anything at all without actually mutilating him. Particularly if your lawyers (and your thugs) are ingenious enough about the exact definition of "mutilation."
The real question is simpler: Do you accept the cowardice and brutal sadism preached by our leaders, or do you choose to reject the temptations of evil?
If America does not survive as a moral nation, we may not survive at all. The temptations of evil are often lies, and those who choose evil often destroy themselves. But even if torture "worked," what honorable man would buy his life at such a cost?
Raven, resorting to the slippery slope fallacy is merely sophistry.
Eric, are you saying it doesn't matter at all whether we forbid death, mutilation, and rape, because interrogators will find another way to do these things, so fixing rules is hopeless?
Rough interrogation is sometimes effective, particularly with regard to hardened jihadists. It's not because pain and suffering makes him talk, but 1) it acts to disorient the captive, and 2) it makes the good cop/bad cop routine more credible.
Doubtless, resorting to these techniques is not the preferred way if the world were perfect. But we're in a war that a brutal enemy started, an enemy that has a religiously driven mass-murdering ideology, and who have violated all the laws of war. Gathering intelligence is the most important and effective tactic of the war; it's not tanks, planes, and ships. Maximizing the effectiveness of intelligence gathering, while restricting the use of mild torture to a handful of cases, is needed in this case.
And what is the alternative? Use the pre-9/11 standard -- terrorists have all the rights of common criminals and are to be brought to trial with all the usual rules of evidence -- when that has been shown to be ineffective?
LiberalAtWar, may I remind you that torture, even so-called mild torture, is evil? And if that does not deter you, then you should know that torture of any kind is a crime under military, national, and international law. Under US law, the maximum penalty is death.
If you're equating showing gay porn or playing loud rock music, to killing and mutilation, and that they're both equally evil, then I'm sorry, we're on completely different wavelengths. Sometimes, in the real world, we must choose between lesser and greater evils. The question is how. That takes wisdom and judgment. Perhaps we should turn the other cheek to jihadists, like that nun in Somalia -- why are we even imprisoning them? But if one of the goals is to minimize the chances of another mega-attack, and at the same time keep our effort from embracing an uncontrolled morass of torture, doesn't the compromise discussed in Washington deserve a fair hearing, even among liberals such as us?
About the legality of torture, isn't changing the law what's being debated in Washington? Our government sets the rules, and we're debating the rules. Dismissing those like me with a wave of the hand, saying it's illegal, is like discussing Mexican immigration with someone very opposed to it, and all they say, is that it's illegal, end of story.
I see that blogs such as intel-dump.com have continued the torture debate for hundreds of postings. I'll continue to read the arguments, particularly from those who share the same liberal political views, even though we disagree on the torture issue.
How's this for a standard: If I were to read a revelation about a torture program during WWII, approved by President Roosevelt, meant only for captured concentration camp officials, with the purpose of getting information about the camps, and the standards of torture involved bright lights, loud music, and bad movies, would I then think the entire war effort was pointless, and that Roosevelt was a war criminal?
Good luck to you all. Perhaps the torture bill will be shot down, all torture will be forbidden, it will never be needed, and we'll never experience another terror attack. I certainly hope so.
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For those of you thinking that if they implement this it will eliminate some of the waiting and lines…
MHO, what has always scared the suits away from GNU/Linux and open source in general is the loss of control over proprietary intellectual property. In their minds, patented proprietary software is like a real property mortgage that you can could record on your balance sheet as a tangible asset. GPL nixes that and that's what has made the suits wary of adopting OS software since you can loose your original art by mixing it with GPLed stuff. With the advent of SAAS, the fear is just not there anymore. You can get your supporting software for free much cheaper that the electricity or water in your building!
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I remember reading circa 2002 that IBM employed about 600 full time OS developers; the last article in Business Week last year quoted the same figure five years later. The good thing for corporate is that although they cannot re-license it(a’la M$), the labor cost to maintaining it on a global scale is small. And, from what I've read the labor cost for OpenBSD are even less. Sounds like a deal to me!
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I'm not sure how Shirky's remarks could be seen as an attempt to "mythologize [a] collection of gratis labor and encourage an ersatz politics of volunteer participation in these fundamentally corporate, private-interest projects," as he explicitly addresses the efforts and implications of paid corporate labor.
There's no blind utopianism in the post; it's a look at what the evolution of Linux development in the corporate realm means for corporate entities and management, not an attempt to pretend we're still in the volunteer phase of the game.
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I worked in an IBM shop when the first GNU programs -- GCC, GDB, and Emacs -- were released. I was in rooms where the executives' take on it and interests were being explored. It was quite simple: at that time, the development tools market was starting to boom. Investment capital was concentrating on it. The first GNU releases killed that and investment in that space contracted and never picked back up to the same levels of interest. A growth market had been destroyed.
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