Who? When? Why?

Some conservatives would like to lock up and torture anyone who doesn't vote Republican.
There are still LaRouchies in Harvard square occasionally. There's also some guy there every day with a hemp display and something about Cheney and Rumsfeld, but I never got the full details of what he wants. But I'm sure both of these are close enough qualify as the dreaded "people on university campuses".

I could cite the guy sitting in President Jimmy Carter's box at the convention, but I suppose that would count as a "crazy [person] who shout[s] on streetcorners". Of course, why a former President would invite a "crazy [person] who shout[s] on streetcorners" to a Presidential box at the Democratic National Convention is beyond me.

I could cite the guy sitting in President Jimmy Carter's box at the convention

No, you couldn't. That's bullshit.

Spartacus Youth League. Youth wing of the Spartacist League, U.S.

Did I mention Michael Moore is fat?

Exactly!

Words cannot describe the infinite weariness I feel when confronted with yet another example of the MSM pundit's favorite empty exercise: postulating a pair extremes so configured as to place his own position--concerned about the way things are going, to be sure, but still basically behind the cretin in chief--at the center to which all wisdom makes its way as if by magic.

I'm also sick to the point of madness of the move whereby the topic shifts from the concerns raised by critics of the administration's disastrous course to the--axiomatically suspect--motives of those critics.

(I know it isn't fair to heap all of this on Ignatius)

Is there a name for this kind of foolish redirect? It's not a straw man per se, it's the author divining the intent of a straw man.

Wow. The "But a fat guy who's not a Democrat was briefly in Carter's box during the 2004 campiagn" routine. I seem to recall a time in which Al was at least a creative troll, although I may be mistaken--anyway, you can smell the mothballs from here now. (Of course, he's also lying about Moore, but that goes without saying.)

Too bad about Ignatius. He could go a little further and get into Ann Coulter territory. That could make him rich. I wonder if realizes that?

I'm sorry, Scott. But realize that MM is, for the right, the gift that keeps on giving. I know you'd like to minimize his importance to the Democratic Party. There are lots of folks whose importance to the Republican Party I'd like to minimize (say, oh, Pat Robertson). But just when people tfrom your side tell me that, bam, the premiere of F9/11 is filled with Democratic bigwigs like then-Senate Minority Leader Daschle and then-DNC chair McAuliffe. Then, next thing you know, bam, sitting with President Carter at the convention. As I said, it's the gift that keeps on giving. I'd stop including MM with the rest of you guys if he were Sister Souldjah'd. But he hasn't been.

I could cite the guy sitting in President Jimmy Carter's box at the convention, but I suppose that would count as a "crazy [person] who shout[s] on streetcorners".

This is presumably the Fat Man, Mr Moore? So can we also include among streetcorner shouters the even more egregious hordes on the right, starting with Mr Coulter hirself, and tens of media personalities far more influential on the right than Moore is on the left, whose opinions are at least as extreme if not moreso than Moore's? I mean, now that the John Birch Society platform ca. 1958 is rather to the left of the official Republican "center," it's hard to know where to draw the line.

MY, there is a fine line between predicting disaster and rooting for disaster. Are you really confident that all the mainstream war critics would be delighted to see the US achieve a great success in Iraq by ignoring their advice? I don't believe it for a minute and I oppose the war myself.

Al, looks like you forgot to cite Moore wanting America to fail, as promised in your earlier comment.

Anti-war liberals are, by their very nature, lacking in self-awareness. Hundreds of thousands of them are walking around today unconsciously rooting for America to lose, as they have always done, whenever America uses force to further her own interests.

I don't actually recall Michael Moore saying anything in F911 that indicated he WANTS to lose the war in Iraq. He was criticizing the Shrub, obviously, for his handling of the War on Terra, but he wasn't rooting to lose. That's right-wing crap, their usual conflation of the Shrub and his neocon bosses with "America."

Since the neocons are the ones whose actions have reduced our reputation and standing overseas, they are the ones who have hurt America.

Off the track, when talking with my husband last night, we came up with a succinct slogan for the Democratic position on Iraq. We don't want to "stay the course," we want to "change the course." You read it here first.

I still can't believe anyone ever defends an overbearing twit who makes bad movies. As for well has he ever said, I would say the following qualifies at least as a "seem almost" statement: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?messageDate=2004-04-14

Ostap, I jsut read the whole statement you quoted, and I don't see it--at all. To me, it reads like a description of how badly Bush was/is bungling things, and a comparison in places to the Vietnam War. How about some specific language from that piece to support your assertion--because I don't see it at all.

Some conservatives would like to lock up and torture anyone who doesn't vote Republican.

You can, I'm sure, provide beaucoup cites for this bit of gratuitous fuckwittery?

The nature of Matt Y's complaint would - coming from almost anyone else on the left - be mordantly ironic. Matt can get away with it because his is one of the few voices from the left that is not routinely an outfall of verbal toxic waste directed at enemies on the right and elsewhere.

Imputing malignant motives to one's opponents is pretty much the default leftist midset so it is unsurprising that it is also among the commonest of leftist rhetorical flourishes. Perhaps this is because the lefist mind cannot seem to distinguish between opposition and hatred. You on the left obviously hate people you disagree with - as even casual perusal of your writings makes clear - so we who are not on the left must hate you back, right?

Perhaps these tedious and tendentious presumptions of opponents' evil intent are merely counterpoint to the assumptions of moral superiority that are the apparent basis for much of the left-wing self-image. It is certainly beyond refutation that baseless speculations about the - always - evil motives of one's ideological opponents is deeply encoded in the DNA of the left. All anyone need do is read what leftists write. Witness Brad DeLong's recent assertions about "conspicuous consumption" and the motives of rich people as an especially risible example.

If more evidence closer to home is required, the baseless assertion of things that cannot reasonably be known by those making the assertions certainly seems to constitute the default template for most responses to comments I post on this site. Not all, to be sure, but most. Sometimes there is actually a topic-related objection or two included as well, but it seems the Elements of Leftist Style hold that personal invective is manadatory and must be front and center in the first graf.

I've often wondered if the reason Ann Coulter seems to generate particularly unhinged responses in the left blogosphere is because she has enthusiastically, and skillfully, appropriated this rhetorical style and made it her own. I, like most non-leftists, don't believe most of you sit up nights wishing for evil things to happen. We think you are merely fools, but not, for the most part, knaves.

Annie really seems to think you're the genuine scum of the Earth though. You hate her so much because she is too much like one of you.

Dick,

I was under the impression that the right believed in original sin. Surely, that implies that most people's motives most of the time are suspect. Mind you, the suspiciousnees of people's motives is strictly irrelevant to the validity of their arguments.

vorkosigan1, how about this passage: The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush?

Seems a bit like he just might be delighted to see "the Minutemen" of Iraq win.

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building." -- Ann Coulter

"I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East and sending liberals to Guantanamo." -- Ann Coulter

Until someone posts a quote from Michael Moore that matches these, I think it's pretty clear who is actually unhinged. (I debated using a word that begins with "F" and ends in "wit" but that seems impolite, and, as we all know, politeness is an important core value).

If you see someone leaping off of a tall building, the sickening sound that is heard as his body hits the pavement is not usually met with anything like "eagerness" or "satisfaction." It may, however, be contrasted with what would be the reception if instead the man stopped six feet from the ground and hovered there, in defiance of gravity. Does an observation of the working of gravity demonstrate a "political point" that would be negated with the demonstration of a gravity-defying miracle? I suspect that what we are seeing here is the wailing of those who thought that a miracle was in the bag, as opposed to those who are shaking their heads sadly at yet another demonstration that men do not possess wings.

I could cite the guy sitting in President Jimmy Carter's box at the convention

Tom Tomorrow? Atrios?

Imputing malignant motives to one's opponents is pretty much the default leftist midset

"Hello, pot?"
"Yes?"
"This is kettle. You're black."

James, Coulter's statements are deranged, even if enriching. However, that says nothing about Moore's statements, which I would imagine are more enriching than hers.

Jose Chung wrote: "Anti-war liberals are, by their very nature, lacking in self-awareness. Hundreds of thousands of them are walking around today unconsciously rooting for America to lose, as they have always done, whenever America uses force to further her own interests."

I think that's nonsense. But it is exactly what I think many conservatives are suggesting: That liberals are so consummed -- consummed with (a) hatred for George Bush,(b)the desire to mask their cowardise with ostensible arguments about why the war was (and is) wrong, and (c) the desire to win elections over the GOP -- that they secretly hope the United States will lose in Iraq. Again, I think that's complete nonsense, but I think it's important to understand the argument being made in order to squarely address it.

The question of whether liberals "root for America to lose" hinges on what one means by "America". For conservatives, "America" is synonymous with the Bush administration. I can't speak for all liberals, but for me "America" is, among other things, a form of goverment that is "of the people, by the people and for the people", and a set of values that includes peoples rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". I see the Bush administration as aggressively opposed to the America i beleive in, and i do want him to lose.

ostap, I cited a few Coulter quotes because it's shooting fish in a barrel to find them. There are, quite frankly, dozens of other folks in her camp that are likewise easy to cull for "deranged" comments, though I will admit, few so obviously thirst for blood.

Anyone who asserts that Michael Moore is a left-wing equivalent should therefore have no problem supplying quotes that are similarly deranged. Have at it. What you "imagine" is only of interest as a form of projective test.

Also, if by "enriching" you mean that Coulter has become wealthy peddling such swill, I daresay you are correct. That there is a market for swill does not turn it into chateaubriand.

ostap you apparantly have the reading comprehension of a 10 year old. Moore's quote is saying that from their point of view the Iraqi's are the minutemen. Duh it is their country. he is also saying that that is why they will win, not that he is rooting for them, simply that it is a fact.

'how about this passage: The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not "insurgents" or "terrorists" or "The Enemy." They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow -- and they will win. Get it, Mr. Bush?

Seems a bit like he just might be delighted to see "the Minutemen" of Iraq win.

Posted by: ostap on September 27, 2006 02:32 PM'

No. It is analogy and prediction. Just because one would presumably root for the minutemen does not mean he is rooting for the Iraqis. Any delight has been provided by the reader's imagination.

Too funny Njorl!

I don't get James' point. Is it that Coulter is a bad, bad person? I'll stipulate! What does that have to do with Moore (who is an answer to Matthew's request in this post)?

(ALso, I need Cleek to come in here and tell us all about tu quoque form of argument.)

Thanks to the right-wing blogosphere we have to disregard anything life-long Republican, Richard Clark, has to say about how inept and stupid the current administration is because he has written a book.
You see, Clark has a financial motive for saying the current occupiers of the White House are bat-shit crazy.

Now, let's see if they can connect the dots between those who started the Iraq War with their connections to war profiteers, The carlyle Group, KBR, Bechtel, Halliburton, etc.

Suddenly the oh so perceptive right-wing blogosphere is as blind as a bat.

As a non-American, I see a non-crazy argument that one ought to "root" for the insurgency in Iraq, notwithstanding the fact that they are reactionary sectarian murderous assholes. It would be based on the idea that people fighting against the occupation of their country are in the right, even if they are reactionary sectarian murderous assholes. I buy that argument in relation to the Mujahedin fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan (although, in fairness, I note that the Spartacist League did not). I would buy it if the Wolverines were fighting the Cuban/Nicaraguan occupation of Nebraska. 9/11 is a different matter, of course. There is no standard by which that could be seen as anything other than mass murder.

I don't actually buy the argument, although I think it is worth recognizing that probably a majority of people in the world do. At the same time, I hardly think it is an act of pure evil for a Sunni Iraqi to try to blow up American soldiers. Like it or not, it's their country.

Juan Cole sez

"The NIE clearly says that the Iraq War is now the main generator of terrorism against the US and its allies. It certainly caused the Madrid train bombings of March, 2004 and the London subway bombings of July 2005. The reaction against the US attack on and occupation of a major Arab Muslim country like Iraq has been anger throughout the Muslim world."

The "main" generator? The NIE also says

"Greater pluralism and more responsive political systems in Muslim majority nations would alleviate some of the grievances jihadists exploit. Over time, such progress, together with sustained, multifaceted programs targeting the vulnerabilities of the jihadist movement and continued pressure on al-Qa’ida, could erode support for the jihadists. "

"If democratic reform efforts in Muslim majority nations progress over the next five years, political participation probably would drive a wedge between intransigent extremists and groups willing to use the political process to achieve their local objectives. Nonetheless, attendant reforms and potentially destabilizing transitions will create new opportunities for jihadists to exploit."

It's not going to be easy but it needs to be done, not only for American security.

How is this going to happen? Begging the Saudis and Egyptians to install democratic reforms? By example in Iraq and Lebanon. Iran's not exactly democratic but they never invaded anybody. Saddam annexed Kuwait, invaded Iran, gassed the Kurds etc etc. It's good he's gone. I don't hear Democrats saying much about democracy in the Middle East.

Frank Rich said the Iraq war was for political reasons. I said it was partly in response to 9-11 and it was politcally risky. If the Democrats win the House in Congress, I will be proven right, it was politically risky and the Repugs lost the House b/c of it.

"The jihadists greatest vulnerability is that their ultimate political solution: an ultra-conservative interpretation of sharia-based governance spanning the Muslim world is unpopular with the vast majority of Muslims."

Yup. That's why theres a good reason they'll eventually lose.

I'm just curious, is Michael Moore still alive? No, really. Because I haven't heard from him since F 9/11 left the theaters. I'd have forgotten about him if the righties didn't keep talking about him. He's like, so 2004. I haven't seen him on TV, and none of the major bloggers have been linking to him. What does he have to do with Democratic politics? He's never been associated with delivering blocs of voters, unlike say, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, et al., and he's never had the platform of a Coulter, a Limbaugh or an O'Reilly. Even among filmmakers, there are others I've heard about a lot more.

Could they at least freshen their attack, and link us with someone who actually has some visibility, like maybe Suri Cruise?

Jose Chung writes, "Anti-war liberals are, by their very nature, lacking in self-awareness. Hundreds of thousands of them are walking around today unconsciously rooting for America to lose." Wow. Jose Chung must be omniscient--he can read not only the minds of hundreds of thousands of liberals, but their unconscious minds too! He's just spewing. I bet he never even talked to a "liberal." What a pity that this is what passes for conservatism these days.

Al, my "point" is that it is easy to find quotes that will make you agree that Ann Coulter is a "bad, bad person." (Speaking to a previous comment that all she's done is mimic "liberal" rhetoric, which is yet another schoolyard "You started it!"). But when one asks for someone to supply quotes from some "liberal" who wants the U.S. to lose the Iraq War, the best anyone is able come up with is one from Michael Moore where he considers what the war might look like to an Iraqi insurgent, and how that might affect their resolve.

I've thought for a long time that the willingness to consider other points of view was what the right wing considers "moral relativism" and a sign of evil intent. Thanks for another confirming anecdote. Just for the record however, the inability to consider other viewpoints is not strength; it is a mental handicap. It is what causes people to walk into traps, like, oh, I don't know, land wars in Asia.

Hmmm. Maybe it's just that you aren't in on certain leftist academic gatherings and skim over stuff like Joel Stein in the L.A. Times, when others really notice it when they see it, and it infuriates them and they don't forget it? Or maybe it's the age of your circle? Read this TPMCafe diary entry--I went "nod, nod" when I did:

"....I call this the “icky-poo factor,” the righteous left’s automatic curled lip of disdain at the sight or mention of a uniformed American soldier...."

I know you are talking about it lacking from what leaders say. But leaders are not where the mthyic proportions come from. Personally, I've seen a plenty of "America deserves to lose bad" rhetoric in the comments sections of the liberal blogosphere. It's not hard to find. I suspect that most of it is the product of non-Americans, especially ones who had anti-American axes to grind before Iraq.

The problem is that American liberals rarely challenge it when they see it, and their silence shows as tacit approval to the offended, they won't speak out against "icky-poo" comments, while never fearing to shrill out on conservative icky-poo.

Yes, it is like when Coulter speaks--the insulted remember far more far longer than anyone else. The left remembers every Coulter insult, the right remembers every Moore transgression, they reinforce each others labels by constantly bringing it up, and the rest of us say a pox on both your houses.

All that said, the "punish America" rhetoric seems to have been a lot quieter the last 6 mos. or so...perhaps that's cause everyone's realized that it actually happened already?

The Rovian plan always was to pin the loss of Iraq on the Democrats if their fantastical best case scenario did not come about. The government could have successfully invaded, occupied and rebuilt Iraq over a ten year period if there was a plan to do so. Rove hoped they would find some WMD, install Chalabi and go home. When this was no longer an option that went with plan b. Until boots hit the ground the Iraq war was unpopular. The Republicans knew this and didn't want to create more hostility to their "brand" by committing the necessary troops (hence the reliance on contractors and private security firms) or raising taxes to pay for the operation.
The invasion of Iraq has always been a giant shell game with both the reasons for war and why we are still fighting shifting constantly. Rove knows the game is about up and his mission is how to diminish the inevitable back lash of "losing" a war (maybe even two) and the damage it will do to a generation of Republicans. The White House political operation is attempting to set up 'stay the course' as route to victory. In their minds, any deviation from this can then be painted as embracing defeat. Any and all plans from the Baker group to the DOD will be based first and formost on Republican political needs.
The wisemen in the Republican party know that they may need to lose one House of Congress and hope the Democrats end funding for the Iraq mission in order to set up a scapegoat.

As we know, Gore Vidal, the darling of the Left, admired Timothy McVeigh and compared him favorably with Paul Revere.

Of course Jose Chung, (insert ad hom here) , proves the point being made. Too lazy to look for quotes and too morally bankrupt to avoid the straw man.

"Gore Vidal, the darling of the Left, admired Timothy McVeigh and compared him favorably with Paul Revere."

Yes, great point! Everyone knows what a vital and prominent role Gore Vidal plays in Democratic political circles. Maybe Chung can cite some quotes from Upton Sinclair or Eugene Debs. How about Thomas Paine? The glaring stupidity of the garbage that come out of the mouths of Republicans is truly mind-boggling.

And better yet, there's the really adorable Republican screed by Dick Eagleson:

"Imputing malignant motives to one's opponents is pretty much the default leftist midset"
"tedious and tendentious presumptions of opponents' evil intent are merely counterpoint to the assumptions of moral superiority"
"motives of one's ideological opponents is deeply encoded in the DNA of the left"
"the Elements of Leftist Style hold that personal invective is manadatory"

Well, well, well; it's clear that somebody enjoys access to good thesaurus and a catalogue from the writing department of the Learning Annex. Something, say, like “The History of Pomposity in America.” What’s most notable about this rightwing dreck is its mind-numbing consistency; beyond the simple inventions, there’s the unnatural affection for jargon; the turgid diction; and as strong a compulsion to torture metaphors as they have for torturing Muslims. As always, the rant sounds, over and over again, the single note on the Republican scale: indignation.

the us has long forgotten the meaning of the word WAR.

If democratic reform efforts in Muslim majority nations progress over the next five years, political participation probably would drive a wedge between intransigent extremists and groups willing to use the political process to achieve their local objectives. Nonetheless, attendant reforms and potentially destabilizing transitions will create new opportunities for jihadists to exploit.

As a non-American, I see a non-crazy argument that one ought to "root" for the insurgency in Iraq, notwithstanding the fact that they are reactionary sectarian murderous assholes. It would be based on the idea that people fighting against the occupation of their country are in the right, even if they are reactionary sectarian murderous assholes. I buy that argument in relation to the Mujahedin fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan (although, in fairness, I note that the Spartacist League did not). I would buy it if the Wolverines were fighting the Cuban/Nicaraguan occupation of Nebraska. 9/11 is a different matter, of course. There is no standard by which that could be seen as anything other than mass murder

I'm just curious, is Michael Moore still alive? No, really. Because I haven't heard from him since F 9/11 left the theaters. I'd have forgotten about him if the righties didn't keep talking about him. He's like, so 2004. I haven't seen him on TV, and none of the major bloggers have been linking to him..

Yes, it is like when Coulter speaks--the insulted remember far more far longer than anyone else. The left remembers every Coulter insult, the right remembers every Moore transgression, they reinforce each others labels by constantly bringing it up, and the rest of us say a pox on both your houses.

Yes, it is like when Coulter speaks--the insulted remember far more far longer than anyone else. The left remembers every Coulter insult, the right remembers every Moore transgression, they reinforce each others labels by constantly bringing it up, and the rest of us say a pox on both your houses. :))) thank you

thanks in ankara flowers

have ypu istanbul flowers

Good comment.Thanks admin.

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democratic reform efforts in Muslim majority nations progress over the next five years, political participation probably would drive a wedge between intransigent extremists and groups willing to use the political process

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Great comment guidelines. I think you’re on the right track here. Some of those comments should go somewhere else.

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Thank you.

If democratic reform efforts in Muslim majority nations progress over the next five years, political participation probably would drive a wedge between intransigent extremists and groups willing to use the political process to achieve their local objectives. Nonetheless, attendant reforms and potentially destabilizing transitions will create new opportunities for jihadists to exploit.

Good to see the polls catch up with reality, now that everyone has realized that the straight talk ship has sailed out of the McBush camp we just might get some real change!

thankx

thanks regards..

Thanks..

thanks regard.s.

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