A Question of Fundamentals

Well, my ancestors are from Norway, and I think that anyone who opposes giving the Norwegians $3 billion per year is obviously anti-Scandinavian. After all, support for Norway is a fundamentally liberal position.

Nice try, Jim W., but off the mark. The affinity between Israeli Jews and American Jews is not some historical, let alone ancestral, phenomenon. We here in the US were not begotten by Israelis. Israeli Jews are Jews NOW. American Jews are Jews NOW. Most American Jews feel that their fate in the world is, in some non-trivial sense, inextricably linked with the fate of Israel and the Jews who live there, even if they cannot quite articulate why they feel this way. But they DO feel this way, and I sense you fail to grasp this reality.

I guess I would add--Matt, is it possible that one aspect of "liberalism" is the elevation of process over product? You might be read to say that Israel should be suppored by [American] liberals insofar as does things that are liberal. But might we say that Israel should be supported by liberals insofar as it behaves liberally from a process perspective? To argue by analogy, many European countries enshrine in law policies that we might regard as more classically liberal (such as limiting governmental interference in abortion, who can marry, what one can smoke) but these same countries are much less classically liberal than the U.S. Support for the death penalty is more or less equal in the U.S. and a number of western European countries--the death penalty is banned in Europe because European politicians don't really listen to their constituents.

DJ Ninja,

There was a study recently released showing that American Jews in their 20s and 30s have very little connection to Israel. I can't find the study right now, but I'll link to it when I find it.

I fail to understand DJ Ninja's logic. After all, Norwegians are Norwegians NOW and Sierra Leonese are Africans NOW and so on. Is he claiming that Jews are the only ones with ethnic affinities in foreign parts? Or that "my relatives, right or wrong" is a liberal attitude?

DJ Ninja is also apparently unfamiliar with the distinction between liberalism and democracy. Lots of illiberal folks "listen to their constituents." Hezbollah and Hamas listen to their constituents. So what?

What's the actual issue here? Most liberals support the right of Israel to exist as a viable, defensible state, don't they? Beyond that...what? That Israel should have an entirely free hand to pursue it's own interests, regardless of the effect of that pursuit on American interests? I don't think I've seen anyone demand that level of support for Israel. So...?

"Israel should be supported by liberals insofar as the things Israel does are worthy of support"

But of course Israel's permanent policy of putting hundreds of thousands of settlers into East Jerusalem and the West Bank is a policy that no liberal can support, because no liberalism is compatible with militarist colonialism and ethnic chauvinism.

It's the difficulty of finding liberal arguments for Israel's actual policies which produces these ambiguity-ridden claims from Israel's supporters.

You're right otto, no actual liberal could support Israel's illegal settlements and their despicable treatment of the Palestinians, though plenty of bought and paid for Democratic pols support, from what I can tell, pretty much anything and everything Israel does.

So far, none of the comments mention the holocaust, the raison d'etre for Israel. It seems there is a recurring theme in European politics--kill Jews. During the Crusades, if there were no Muslims available, get a Jew. Then we had the Inquisition (see Mel Brooks for more information)--add some pogroms--and then, refusing immigration of Jews, without money, to flee Hitler. Israel should have been carved out of Germany (the Danzig corridor was appropriate), but that would have meant Jews would still be Europeans--not the "solution" of choice.

American liberals of that age had many Jews in their ranks--and thus Israel was a liberal cause. Israel would have been thrown to the wolves if not for Jews (and their money) in American politics--not likely to happen to Norwegians. Israel's future is pecarious--oil is the siren de jour--and Jews will support the Jewish Homeland even when its politics suck. This is not a political choice, it's the fear of history repeating itself. Liberal--schmiberal--survival first.

supporting the Jewish state is fundamentally a liberal position

I'll take a guess at what Greenberg means.

Liberalism to a large extent consists of siding with the weak, underdog, minority, or victim against the powerful, privileged, majority, or oppressor. Lots of people view Israel mainly as 'little Israel,' or David, surrounded by Goliath enemies. Even more people, I think, view the Jewish nation as history's ultimate minority victim, tragically oppressed by the Nazis, Inquisitors, and other extreme rightwing regimes through nearly all of European history. Viewed this way, Israel should be an exemplary object of liberal compassion.

Of course, it's also easy to see American support for Israel as a fundamentally conservative position, or support for the Palestinians as a fundamentally liberal position - maybe even a little easier.

In my understanding of liberalism, there is a tension between defining a state as the state of a particular religious or ethnic group and its ability to remain liberal with respect to persons under its jurisdiction who aren't part of that group. I recognize that Israel's liberals -- and particularly their courts -- have done their best to try to address this contradiction. But it's still a contradiction.

I understand mal's point that when push comes to shove, liberalism will inevitably give way to ethnic solidarity. That's probably true, which is why there is so little liberalism in the world.

I understand mal's point that when push comes to shove, liberalism will inevitably give way to ethnic solidarity.

If only the Administration (or it's supporters, for that matter, some of whom are pretty strident Likudniks, IIRC) had been clear on this before we invaded Iraq. Ah, well, spilled milk.

I'm still not seeing the point. Judt notwithstanding, support for the continued existence of Israel as a viable Jewish state is pretty strong in the US. Most criticism seems to revolve around specific implementation of policies in support of that viability.

Israel should be supported by liberals insofar as the things Israel does are worthy of support.

Is the idea of imposing a Jewish state on Arab land through forced depopulation and "transfer" an idea worthy of support?

Is the idea of a Jewish state or a religious state in general an idea worthy of support?

Is the idea of an undeclared, illegal nuclear state in the heart of the Middle East an idea worthy of support?

As for the Jews needing special protection: what a slap in the face to all the other human races who have been victims of genocide and persecution.

Most American Jews feel that their fate in the world is, in some non-trivial sense, inextricably linked with the fate of Israel and the Jews who live there, even if they cannot quite articulate why they feel this way.

How do you know? Are there polls?

SomeCallMeTim,

The Administration understand the importance of tribal solidarity perfectly in domestic politics, but can't understand that other people are equally loyal to their tribes. It is a failure of imagination.

While Tony Blair and Michael Ignatieff might have imagined that the invasion of Iraq was about extending the benefits of liberalism, this just shows that there is a certain kind of dumb you need to be really smart to achieve. The invasion of Iraq only makes sense in pure tribal terms: Arabs killed some of us, so we must kill some Arabs.

Liberalism is an attempt to get beyond this impulse, but it is probably doomed to fail.

So far, none of the comments mention the holocaust, the raison d'etre for Israel.

What nonsense. The 'raison d'etre for Israel' was articulated at least as early as 1896, in Theodr Herzl's book The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat).

Since the hard left has negated Israel's right to self-defense (see Lebanon, summer of 2006), Greenberg's point is quite obvious.

I think where Greenberg is going with this is a little more clear if you replace "veers farther to the right than many of us would like" with "has just admitted a supporter of ethnic cleansing into its cabinet."

I think the incompetent morons Israelis are letting run their country lately has negated their "right to self-defense."

I give 'em maybe 5 years more...

So far, none of the comments mention the holocaust, the raison d'etre for Israel.

Yeah, this is crap. Modern Zionism clearly predates WWII.

Ah, yes, who could forget the summer of 2006 when in response to small-scale violence by an unofficial extremist Jewish group, the Lebanese airforce destroyed the Tel Aviv airport, the rest of the country's transportation infrastructue, left a large portion of the population homeless and announced that everyone who remained in the northern part of the country, including infants and the elderly, were fair targets for annihlation. The worst part was how the Lebanese wouldn't let Israelis leave the targeted part of their country, while claiming their continued presence there was culpable collaboration with the terrorists!

And who could forget how the hard left announced complete support for the Lebanese assault on democratic Israel. How they denounced persons of Lebanese descent who differed with the official campaign as traitors and those of other nationalities as anti-Lebanese bigots! It was a shame, forever burned in our memories.

Ethnic cleansing is so 1990s, we're calling it 'population transfers' these days.

"So far, none of the comments mention the holocaust, the raison d'etre for Israel.

What nonsense. The 'raison d'etre for Israel' was articulated at least as early as 1896, in Theodr Herzl's book The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat).

Posted by: David Tomlin on October 27, 2006 07:06 PM "

Israel was put in the ME to get the rest of the Jews out of Europe. Herzl's book was a convenient "movement" to hide behind. Why take land away from the Arabs when it was the Germans that killed the Jews? And you were partioning Germany at the time? And the Jews already spoke the language of that area? Sure, going back 2000 years to find a "home" for them, instead of the homes where they just lived, was done to be "good" to them. Funny, my family doesn't remember it that way---as a matter of fact, they weren't allowed to return to the home taken away from them in Vienna. I know history gets revised, and updated, but it would be nicer to wait for all those displaced to die so that don't have to read the new version of their life story.

"Irregardless" is not a word.

It is but the not the preferred

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=irregardless

I'm only a few percent Jewish (although my Y chromosome is all-Jew, all the time). Yet, I gather that even if I was 100% Jewish I would still be an anti-Semite in the minds of some (who seem to be the same people not so long ago defending Nixon's mad anti-Semitic ravings) to suggest that perhaps the Palestinians deserve a modicum of dignity (and maybe food and water too) despite the epic irresponsibility of their leaders. There are responsibilities that come with governance, and there are responsibilities that come with occupation. If Israeli security depends on limiting the flow of goods and people from the territories (I'm unconvinced that Gaza is not still under occupation), then Israel, America, and the international community have a responsibility to provide a good job to every head of household in Gaza and the West Bank.

Irregardless of whether "irregardless" is a word, your micro-point does not refute MY's meta-point. :)

"Meta-Level".

Wow. What level is that?

then Israel, America, and the international community have a responsibility to provide a good job to every head of household in Gaza and the West Bank.

You should totally hold your breath until we do that.

So many comments here reflect the anti-Semitism disguised as anti-Zionism which sadly is so common nowadays among the hard left.

Look, supporting the Jewish state is a liberal position simply because Israel is liberal, in comparison to its neighbors. I mean liberal in the traditional sense, not necessarily in the narrow American political sense. Israel is a vibrant democracy which provides freedom of thought, freedom of speech, equal rights to Women, equal rights to Jews, Arabs and other ethnic groups. These qualities are rarely found in other middle Eastern states.

The aggressive actions of Israel mentioned in many of the posts above have to be understood in the context of an ongoing war. In 1948 the world agreed essentially unanimously to support the partition of Palestine into a Jewish state and an Arab state. This was a response in part to the holocaust, and in part to the facts on the ground: there had always been Jews in Palestine but by this time their numbers were very substantial. On the day of Israel's independence, it was immediately invaded by the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq. This context seems to be completely missing from these shallow attacks that can be found on every leftist website these days. The history of Israel and its neighbors since then has been a complex one. Clearly wrongs have been done on both sides. Personally I have always been opposed to the settlement movement, for instance. But even as destructive as the settlement movement has proved to be, it pales into insignificance besides the attempts at annihilation that have been made by Israel's Arab neighbors.

The bottom line is that we owe Israel our support (as liberals) because Israel is a liberal state. Everyone who sits in judgment of Israel's actions should think very carefully, because you never know how you might act if the very existence of your nation were threatened.

"You should totally hold your breath until we do that."

I've been holding my breath for the last twenty-three years waiting for my mother to buy me a video game like on Silver Spoons.

Of course you're right. Israel feels angry, and guilty. America is indifferent in a certain kind of way. Europe is indifferent in a slightly different kind of way. The Arabs want for the conflict to continue for their own purposes. And no one - more or less - gives a damn.

Look, supporting the Jewish state is a liberal position simply because Israel is liberal, in comparison to its neighbors.

For what value of support? Oh wait, that's what the post said.

France is more liberal than Algeria. Was the liberal position in the 1950s the support of French colonialism?

Everyone who sits in judgment of Israel's actions should think very carefully, because you never know how you might act if the very existence of your nation were threatened.

Dun dun duunnnn. Because otherwise what? When someone points out that we are behaving hypocritically, we'll all feel bad? Because others will think badly of us for behaving hypocritically? I'll try to contain my fear.

Israel: We're better than Syria

Doesn't do much for me, sorry.

Everyone who sits in judgement of the Palestinians's actions should think very carefully, because you never know how you might act if your country was under foreign occupation.

Everyone who sits should think very carefully, because there are some very nasty pranks going around that involve chairs.

Clearly wrongs have been done on both sides.

That's true. But the occupation is the central fact that defines the relationship. Israel needs to get its settlers and soldiers out of all the occupied territories. Until then, the Palestinians are victims; and Israel is the criminal.

>the central fact that defines the relationship

...is the continued drive to destroy Israel by Hamas at all.

This conflict didn't start in 1967, contrary to
the revisionism going around these days.

This conflict didn't start in 1967, contrary to
the revisionism going around these days

Whatever. Only one of the parties to the conflict at this point can act unilaterally to change things. And Israel, that party, refuses to do so.

It's a perverse feedback loop. Repubs push (or force) Israel over the top, Dems must criticize, thus more Jewish voters go Repub. It's another "corrupt symbiosis" process that could function in lots of places around the world, driving immigrant voters from those countries into the arms of the Repubs.

What sort of outrageous act, for example, might Repubs encourage Calderon to commit -- an act that would require Dems to react in a way that would drive Mexican-American votes toward Repubs?

Israel acted unilaterally last year when it withdrew from Gaza.

It only increased the apetite of the Islamists.

The room is yours, but we get to control the door and windows. Can't imagine why someone would be pissed about that setup.

I gather that the subtext of hard-nosed politicking by Jewish liberals (as opposed to Christian conservatives) re: Israel has much to do with Iran's nuclear program (and the threat of the Islamic bomb more generally) in the short term. I also gather that many of these same people don't especially wish to consider the long term demographic trends also threatening the Jewish state.

As I said, I believe that Israel has a resposnibility to provide for the economic development and humanitarian needs of the Palestinians, but I'm also more inclined than progressives to regard the Islamic bomb as the greatest threat to Israel, and less inclined than progressives to regard the coming Arab majority in Israel to be a great long term threat to the Jewish state.

I have no idea if the president of Iran is an apocalyptic lunatic, or a demagogue and shill, or both. And I imagine few others do either (even if I favor a diplomatic resolution to the emerging crisis over Iran's nuclear program); that is the problem.

On the other hand, I think that the demographic threat is overstated. By the time the Arab baby boom makes them a plurality in Israel I expect the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will be resolved, and even if the Arabs of Israel do demand and get a measure of greater equality under the law, Israel's economy is likely to continue to depend on tourism, and any amount of that tourism will continue to be by evangelicals from around the world (who for theological reasons do not wish to see Israel rebranded as something other than the Jewish state). I expect the Arabs of Israel will continue to see the economic utility to maintaining the Israeli brand.

I have no idea if the president of Iran is an apocalyptic lunatic, or a demagogue and shill, or both. And I imagine few others do either (even if I favor a diplomatic resolution to the emerging crisis over Iran's nuclear program); that is the problem.

The paucity of your imagination may indeed be a problem, but it's not a foreign policy problem.

The question about America's relationship with Israel is the oldest question in politics and it never gets asked, let alone answered.
What's in it for me (us)? What strategic, economic, or ethical interests of the United States of America justify our support of Israel come what may. The ethno-religious-emotional ties SOME Americans have with Israel are a consideration, but they're not an answer.
Unless those who advocate blindly backing up Israeli policy no matter what it is provide an answer, sooner or later, the body politic will reject their stance in favor of its own self-interest. Unfortunately for Israel, the event that'd provoke such a reappraisal would likely be an inescapable crisis for that state, but one the US could walk away from if it chose.

"Israel was put in the ME to get the rest of the Jews out of Europe. Herzl's book was a convenient "movement" to hide behind."

Er, except that the Jewish population of what's now Israel was about 450,000 in 1940 (after Nazi oppression in Germany proper, but before the Holocaust and before the main events of WWII). Israel was an attempt WITHIN the Jewish community to get people out of Europe, but that was largely opposed by most of the world community's government's. It was initially fueled not by the Holocaust, but by the Russian pogroms of the late nineteenth century. The British, who ruled the area, very severly curtailed (legal) Jewish immigration before, during and after WWII.

The Zionist movement (in many forms and avatars)was quite popular within the Jewish community - for the Seventh World Zionist Congress, 800 delegates were elected and sent to Switzerland (not a cheap journey in 1905). There were at least 238 Zionist societies by 1905 in the US alone - in Russia, there were well over 1,000 Zionist organizations by 1900 (with something like 300,000 members). The Jewish Colonial Trust had roughly 300,000 donors by 1905.

"And you were partioning Germany at the time? And the Jews already spoke the language of that area?"

Which Jews? There was only a small number of German Jews who survived the Holocaust (without, of course, escaping to foreign countries before the Holocaust began). Only about 50,000 German Jews survived the Holocaust (another 250,000 had escaped before the Holocaust started). Most of those who had escaped before the Holocaust had already spent 5-12 years in exile, and very few wanted to return to Germany. The ones who had been through the camps generally were also fairly reluctant to stay in Germany. Most of the survivors of the Holocaust were Polish, Russian or other European Jews - German/Austrian Jews were almost totally annihilated, while other European Jewish communities had somewhat higher survival rates (besides that the German Jewish community was a small one compared to the Polish/Russian community). There is no particular reason why most of those non-German Jews would want to have a Jewish state in Germany - they weren't Germans, didn't speak German, didn't like Germans and, since the infrastructure of Germany had been massively damaged, Germany's future didn't look particularly rosey at that moment.

Meanwhile, there were already 600,000 Jews in Palestine, and a population which was rapidly growing.

Thanks
Best regards
mirc
mirç
mırc
mırç
mircturk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mirc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırcturk
turkmırc
mırc turk
turk mırc
turkiyemirc
türkiyemirc
turkiye mirc
türkiye mirc
mircturkiye
mirctürkiye
mirc turkiye
mircturk
turkmırc
muhabbet
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc chat
mırc ındır
mirc ındır
Türkçe mirc
Türkce mirc
Turkçe mirc
Türkce mirc
Türkçe mırc
Türkce mırc
Turkçe mırc
Turkce mırc
mirc
mirc
forum
forum
turkforum
turkiyeforum
mirc
turkmirc
toplist
site ekle
pagerank
turkmirc
turkforum
sohbet
chat
sohbet odaları
bedava sohbet
bedava chat
türk
karar

perde

temizlik

stor perde

ip perde

jaluzi perde

dikey perde

ofis temizliği

ilaçlama

açılış organizasyon

perdeci

perde modelleri

organizasyon

sex shop

seks shop

sexshop

sexshop

cd

seksshop

http://www.ekmekmusafcarpsin.com/

Bedava Oyunlar
kız oyunları
macera oyunları
yarış oyunları
oyun oyna
oyunlar
oyun
hedef oyunları
spor oyunları
dövüş oyunları
çizgi film
oyun hileleri
zeka oyunları
hedef oyunları
çocuk oyunları
işletme oyunları
3 boyutlu oyunlar
oyun videoları izle
çizgi film izle
animasyon
oyunlar 1
oyunlar1
oyunambari
minikperi
kraloyun
kral oyun
oyunlar1
rixoyun
rix oyun
fixoyun
fix oyun
oyunlife
oyunmemo
oyunyolu
oyun99
oyun oyna
oyun sitesi
oyun siteleri
oyun ara
oyun
oyunlar
barbie oyunu
barbie oyunları
barbie oyunlar
barbie
winx oyunu
winx club
winx oyunları
winx
bratz oyunu
bratz oyunları
bratz oyunu
giysi oyunu
giydirme oyunu
kıyafet oyunu
giydirme oyunları
giysi oyunları
giysi giydirme oyunu
giysi giydirme oyunları
makyaj oyunları
makyaj oyunu
makyaj yapma oyunları
yemek oyunları
yemek yapma oyunları
pasta oyunları
pasta süsleme oyunları
futbol oyunları
çocuk oyunları
yarış oyunları
boyama oyunları
araba oyunları
araba yarışı oyunları
motor oyunları
basketbol oyunları
beceri oyunları
dövüş oyunları
manken oyunları
komik oyunlar
oda oyunları
spor oyunları
zeka oyunları
yapboz oyunları
cep oyunları
yeni oyunlar
oyunambari
oyuncambazi
oyun sitesi
oyun siteleri
oyun hileleri
hileler
çizgi film
cep oyunu
oyun oyns
oyun oyna
video izle
chip oyun
barbie oyunu
kız oyunları
sue oyunları
güzel oyunlar
pop oyunlar
pop oyun
popoyunlar
popoyun
popoyunları
pop oyun
popoyunlar
popoyun
popoyunları
çizgi film izle
çizgi film seyret
çocuk çizgi film izle
şirinler çizgi film izle
tom ve jery çizgi film izle
cizgi film izle
çizgi film
cocuk sitesi
cocuk siteleri
cocuk sitesi
cocuk sitesi
cizgi film seyret
çocuk cizgi film izle
şirinler cizgi film izle
tom ve jery cizgi filmi izle
Aksiyon Macera Oyunları
Macera Oyunları
Motor Oyunları
Mario Oyunları
Strateji Taktik Oyunları
Yemek Pişirme Oyunları
Dekor Oyunları
Boyama Kitabı Oyunları
Hugo Oyunları
Sonic Oyunları
Webcam Oyunları
Peri Güzellik Oyunları
Battleon Oyunları
Bebek Oyunları
Süper Oyunlar
İlizyon Oyunları
Komik Oyunlar
En güzel oyunlar
güzel oyunlar
Çocuk Oyunu
Çocuk Oyunları
işletme Oyunları
işletme Oyunu
Teletabi Oyunları
Korku Oyunları

Thanks Best Regards
mirc
mırc
mırç
mircturk
mirctürk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mırc indir
mirç indir
mirc yükle
mırc yükle
mirc yukle
mırc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırc turk
mircada
mircturkiye
muhabbet
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc chat
mırc ındır
mirc ındır
türkçe mirc
turkce mirc
turkçe mırc
turkce mırc
oper mirc
sohbet
forum
chat
online sinema
catlak
türk forum
turk forum
kafkas
kafkasya
ders
siyaset
izmir
karşiyaka
karsiyaka
forum
karsıyaka
sohbet

harbiarkadas.com
harbiarkadas.net
harbiarkadas.org
itirafet.org
ebedava.net
elektronikmarket.net
ameribress.com
clitoriacream.net
superspenisbuyutucu.com
megabress.com
rednightperformans.com
performansartirici.com
penisplus.tv
penispluspenisbuyutucu.com
penispluspenisbuyutucu.net
cinselmerkez.com
aseks.net
erotikcamasirlar.com
vajinatr.com
bakirevajina.com
cinselkozmetik.com
kozmetikmedikel.com
eturknet.com
tecavuz.net
yutuvideo.com
ponotubesex.com
laraperuk.com
sackanagimerkezi.com
peruksa.com
perukmarket.com
aseks.com
aloveshop.com
erotikgiyim.com
geciktiricispreyler.com
geciktiricihap.com
geciktiriciler.com
azdirici.com
bayanuyarici.com
fntazialemi.com
fantaziservisi.om
cinselmazemeler.com
cinselfantaziurunleri.com
erotikdakikalar.com
erotikmarketiniz.com
seksmarketiniz.com
sekshatlari.com
erotikdergiler.com
erotikderginiz.com
penisbuyutucuviprx.com
penisbuyutucuvigrx.com
penisbuyutuculer.com
vigrxpenisbuyutucu.com
sismebebekler.com
sismebebekshop.com
yemekeviniz.com
sanalmarketiniz.com
elektronikmarket.net
ebedava.net
kontortr.com
elaydin23.com
turkcellkontorcu.com
aveakontoral.com
vodafonekontoral.com
toptankontorcu.com
cinselkozmetik.com
bayanpartnerler.com
erkekpartnerler.com
kizarkadaslar.com
yonjaarkadas.com
siberalem-siberalem.com
sexpartnerler.com
sekspartnerler.com
erotikpartnerler.com
gencyuz.com
erkekarkadaslar.com
bayanarkadaslar.com
yemekeviniz.com
sanalmarketiniz.com
baskahaber.com
medikalkozmetik.net
kozmetikmedikal.com
zayiflamavediyet.net
zayiflamahapii.com
zayiflamabandii.com
kilovertr.com
zayiflamatr.net
diyettr.com
toksinbandi.net
botoxtr.com
botokstr.com
selulittedavii.com
selulitgiderici.net
selulitkremii.com
catlaktedavisii.com
catlakgiderici.net
catlakkremii.com

penis büyütücü

sex shop

penis buyutuculer

seks shop

erotik shop

http://www.sexshopum.net