Learning Nothing

For a man who advocated extremely stridently on behalf of a policy which he now admits was a mistake and which has led, directly and indirectly, to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people Jonah Goldberg's managed to maintain a remarkably churlish attitude toward people who disagreed with him about Iraq. Which is another way of saying that some conservatives now seem to be edging toward the annoying position of many former liberal hawks -- after years of insisting this pile of shit was a tasty stew, they're prepared to admit that it's actually a pile of shit but don't want to draw any conclusions from that fact.

Iraq is a mistake, but all the attitudes and ideas about the world and America's role in it that led to the mistake somehow remain perfectly intact. The proposal, meanwhile, to hold a referendum in Iraq on whether our troops should stay is cute, but it founders on a lot of ambiguities about exactly how to word the question. Whoever was in charge of the referendum could rig it to have the desired outcome one way or the other. Doing that may be a smart idea, but you'd still need to decide in advance what the desired outcome is.

10/20/06 10:28AM del.icio.us this incoming links

Comments

Shorter version:

"There's no downside to X being wrong because we're good people. There's no upside to Y being right because they're bad people."

Posted by: Jeffrey Davis on October 20, 2006 10:52 AM

Matt, you are pretty much the only blogger I know of who changed his mind on the war and didn't pull some variation on the "but you guys have to give me credit for my good intentions" riff. It is commendable, for it speaks to an intellectual honesty that is woefully rare nowadays.

Posted by: dj moonbat on October 20, 2006 10:53 AM

I second dj moonbat's compliment; being wrong about something is perfectly human, but choosing to ignore reality to feel justified after the fact a la pantload et al. is best left behind in elementary school.

Speaking about those with the more mature take on the Iraq war, any chance that a former reality-based TNR author and current roommate of Big Media DC bloggers will join TAP or some other publication on the light side of the force?

Posted by: jfaberuiuc on October 20, 2006 11:02 AM

Shorter (still) Jonah:

"Sure the war was a mistake, but the real mistake was disagreeing with ME."

Posted by: Jimmm on October 20, 2006 11:04 AM

"Matt, you are pretty much the only blogger I know of who changed his mind on the war and didn't pull some variation on ... ... It is commendable, for it speaks to an intellectual honesty"

You are correct that Matthew pulled a different variation, but it doesn't have any more intellectual honesty than Goldberg's.

His 'mismanagement isn't the issue - any military action was doomed' position manages to avoid all of the difficult questions just as easily as Goldberg's position does.

Posted by: Petey on October 20, 2006 11:16 AM

His 'mismanagement isn't the issue - any military action was doomed' position manages to avoid all of the difficult questions just as easily as Goldberg's position does.

Petey, there aren't any difficult questions here. The war was unnecessary (no WMD, remember?), we fought it anyway. The fact that we're losing might speak to incompetence, but we should never have put ourselves in a position where losing was even a possibility, because, again, the war wasn't needed for anything.

Posted by: dj moonbat on October 20, 2006 11:22 AM

Petey: Any substantive position manages to "avoid difficult questions" that assume things contrary to the substantive position. The position that military action was justified but the Bushies screwed it up avoids the difficult question whether any set of policies could have produced the outcome the administration was ostensibly looking for. I don't know what purpose is served by calling this intellectually dishonest. Goldberg's position is different: it's basically "I admit I was wrong, but I'm glad to have been wrong because only the hippies were right." That's dishonest (or churlish, or whatever) in a way that doesn't really have to do with the issues -- you could plug any set of substantive views into that formula, and it would remain equally silly.

Posted by: Christopher M on October 20, 2006 11:24 AM

I'm old enough to remember the agonizing debate about the War in Vietnam. The only group that mainstream Americans seemed to be madder at than the people who ran the war were the people who opposed it. Now that Bush has OK'd analogies between the wars, I'm free to say that the same thing could happen again. I vote for holding people accountable but keeping the sneering and American-bashing in check.

Posted by: Barry on October 20, 2006 11:31 AM

Boy am I confused. A war that turns out to be an unnecessary mistake in 2006 was nonetheless necessary in 2003. Rather than examine why we choose to go to war, Goldberg sounds like he'd do it all over again. Talk about trying to have things both ways. At least he's in touch with current reality, unlike the Fred "we're being misled by the MSM about Iraq" Barneses of the world.

Posted by: Bill on October 20, 2006 11:38 AM

What seems as difficult for conservatives to admit that they are
wrong, is to admit that their opponents are *right*. Thus, with the
Iraq war, they struggle to concoct a scenario in which they were wrong
for the right reasons, while the opponents of the war were right for
the wrong reasons. A scenario which fulfills these requirements is
the following: the obstacles and difficulties we've experienced in
Iraq were largely unpredictable by anyone, and any opposition to the
Iraq war stemmed purely out of a hatred reflex to oppose anything Bush
did, rather than a thoughtful analysis of the situation. This allows
conservatives to not face up to the fact that those opposed to the war
had a better grasp of the reality of the situation than they, and not
change their pattern of thinking.

Posted by: A Monkey's Nephew on October 20, 2006 12:20 PM

A referendum! More purple fingers! What's not to like? CNN will pee in its pants.

Posted by: Jose Padilla on October 20, 2006 12:28 PM

Jonah Goldberg did not get a job at the LA Times because he's open-minded. Quite the opposite. His intellectual capacity is well beneath the threshold for admitting error and taking responsibility. And his knowledge of the facts, to begin with, seems limited to what he gleaned from comic books, USA Today, and reruns of the simpsons.

Posted by: Murph on October 20, 2006 12:30 PM

In 2004 most GOP pundits and candidates were traveling downstream in their "swiftboats" attacking every Democratic candidate that dared to criticize the Bush administration's war in Iraq. In 2006 you not only can't find the GOP "swiftboat", you can't find a Republican willing to jump in and try to navigate the hapless dingy against the strong current of voter dissatisfaction with the seemingly never ending war.

Someone throw Jonah a lifeline!

Read more here:

www.thoughttheater.com

Posted by: Daniel DiRito on October 20, 2006 12:52 PM

"The proposal, meanwhile, to hold a referendum in Iraq on whether our troops should stay is cute, but it founders on a lot of ambiguities about exactly how to word the question."

True enoguh, but perhaps things have gotten so bad in Iraq that they would vote us out no matter how the question was framed. Given a strong majority has said they support attacks on U.S. troops (70% or so wasn't it?), how many of those are going to turn around and vote for us to stay? Maybe some of them would miss not having us around to shoot at, but I doubt they'll make or break the vote.

In any case, I like the Goldberg proposal here. It provides a face-saving excuse for the war party to advocate the cut and run ("We gave the Iraqia democracy and that's what they voted for."). Anyone who genuinely wants to see this war end should eagerly take up this olive branch, despite the "churlishness" with which it is offered.

Posted by: Shochu John on October 20, 2006 01:39 PM

Anyone who genuinely wants to see this war end should eagerly take up this olive branch, despite the "churlishness" with which it is offered.

Fair enough. But part of the "forces out of Iraq" option in the referendum should be a codicil stating that we will "roll the doughy pantload up in a carpet and throw him off a bridge."

Posted by: dj moonbat on October 20, 2006 01:48 PM

Jonah's point basically boils down to "I was wrong about the war but the anti-war left is far worse because, well, uh, because they'e on the left!" That's brilliant. But not new, for decades now "conservativism" seems to be more an attitude than a coherent ideology. Conservatives are defined more about what they're against than what they're for. Basically if people who don't live mainstream traditional lives make you angry you're a conservative. Hence there may be some truth that the GOP offers a bigger tent than the Democrats if you look at people's stated political positions - you have anti-war cons like Derbyshire, vaguely social liberals like Jonah, the occasional intelligent religious believer like Ross Douthat, and now atheists like Hitchens. What unites them all is basically just resentment at an amorphous "liberal elite".

Posted by: vanya on October 20, 2006 02:07 PM

I cringe to say it, but I actually agree with Jonah on the vote issue (having mentioned it earlier at http://agorabum.blogspot.com/2006/08/iraq-solution-put-it-to-vote.html).
Matt is right that the key is how you structure the vote (and I'm sure Bushco. would do so poorly).
What Jonah misses is the Arabic idea of hospitality to those that are guests, and fighting those who are invaders or intruders. Indeed, for many, honor demands that occupiers must be resisted by violent means. So by coming in an invasion, we were occupiers and must be resisted. If they vote to have us help out, we are invited guests and to be respected.
Of course, in the anarchy of Iraq today, a vote wouldn't be respected by the losers.
The real purpose of the vote is actually as an exit strategy at this point. The Iraqi people hate us (approx. 60% say attacks on Americans are ok). It would just be useful as the Iraqis telling us "Hey America, we want you to stand down. Get out."
It's better to be told what to do in such a fashion than continue butting our heads against the wall (or walking into the meat grinder or whatever you want to call our sitiuation there).

Posted by: agorabum on October 20, 2006 04:26 PM

So much Republican thinking on foreign policy was anticipated by Adam Ant:

No method in our madness
Just pride about our manner

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