Single-Sex Schools

I think the appropriate response is shrug one's shoulders and say, "Well, I guess we'll see how it goes."

This is a good example of the kind of issue that conservatives say that liberals care a lot about, but actual liberals generally don't give a damn about. My take: whatever.

I almost attended Harvard-Westlake before it was hyphenated, and admitted both sexes.

After a visit, I concluded that same-sex education had a strange metabolic effect on young men.

Actually, I just didn't want to wake up twenty minutes earlier (it was further away).

Both my wife and I attended single-sex private schools: me in Tennessee, she in Los Angeles (Westlake before it merged with Harvard School). We're largely well adjusted, although I think she disliked the experience more than I did. The single-sex experience has its social limitations but I'm not sure it deserves its poor reputation ("strange metabolic effect?" oh please) or (on the other hand) its exclusive mystique. Plus, there are real academic advantages as well.

I went to same sex high schools. My opinion: it's a good thing in high school. I think for a lot of us graduates that, later in life, maybe women tend to seem a bit more exotic than otherwise, but that's not exactly a bad thing.

From my review of Leonard Sax's "Why Gender Matters:"

As founder of the national association for Single-Sex Public Education, Sax's favorite and perhaps most valuable theory is that co-educational schooling is frequently a mistake. He makes a strong case, especially concerning the years immediately following puberty. He cites the experience of two psychologists studying self-esteem in girls. They went to Belfast, where children can be assigned fairly randomly to coed or single-sex schools:

"They found that at coed schools, you don't need to ask a dozen questions to predict the girl's self-esteem. You have to ask only one question: 'Do you think you're pretty?'"

Similarly, the Coleman Report found, four decades ago, that boys put more emphasis on sports and social success in coed schools, and less on intellectual development. Sax argues:

"Here's the paradox: coed schools tend to reinforce gender stereotypes.… There is now very strong evidence that girls are more likely to take courses such as computer science and physics in girls-only schools…. Boys in single-sex schools are more than twice as likely to study art, music, foreign languages, and literature as boys of equal ability attending comparable coed schools. "

seems to me middle school/junior high would be ideal times for single-sex education. but, as seems to be the consensus here, I have no strong feelings either way.

interesting to note that central Florida, where I come from, has no single-sex schools either way, even religious schools. I find this puzzling, but guess it speaks to the prevailing educational philosophy of the era central Florida was developed (60s-80s, mostly).

Here is a link to a section of Sax's book:

http://www.pilambda.org/horizons/v84-3/sax.pdf

It's probably healthy to not have to come out swinging with some well settled opinion on every single story you come accross. There is definately a group out there of people who are more or less incapable of internalizing a piece of information unless they also have some way to believe it is "outrageous" or that it conforms to one running argument or another that they are constructing.

Do they mean grade schools in the like? In Minnesota we're conducting a pilot program where in the first few grades girls are all together and boys are all together. They mingle at lunch and recess etc. but the learning is done same sex. We are studying whether that kind of education environment can help girls become more comfortable speaking up and showing what they know as opposed to boys. Apparently at least in MN when boys and girls are together, most girls don't offer answers or involvement letting the boys monopolize the discussion. So I can see a potential positive in THAT kind of single-sex class but entire school buildings? Dumb.

Of course if they were to extend it to high shool, hormonal teenage boys would riot...

...and rightly so.

Of course if they were to extend it to high shool, hormonal teenage boys would riot...

...and rightly so.

No, in fact, they don't. (See the Navy medic thread above.) There have been all boys high schools from time out of mind, and the teen age boys don't riot. In fact, absent girls to show off in front of, they're much more restrained than in mixed schools.

I'm probably the only high-school student who reads this blog, so I feel like it's my duty to say this: isn't the obvious reason to be against single-sex education that it's more fun to go to school with people you're interested in hooking up with? Seriously. The effects on educational quality are probably pretty small whichever way they lean, and if there were no girls at my school I would not be a happy camper.

"The single-sex experience has its social limitations but I'm not sure it deserves its poor reputation ("strange metabolic effect?" oh please) or (on the other hand) its exclusive mystique."

I was only kidding. The only sense in which I'm not considerably more conservative than any number of liberals re: k-12 education policy is that I believe middle and high school kids should be able to choose their own school (even if that preference contradicts the preference of their parents). I favor a rich system of choice (based in part on the Dutch and more specifically Danish system) with four tiers: public and charter schools (the first tier), foundational schools (founded by groups of parents or teachers along any denominational lines or educational philosophy [this is what they have in the Netherlands, Denmark, and Sweden] and overseen by an independent school board), vouchers for pre-existing accredited independent schools (that retain their independence from government regulation but would not be eligible for foundational or developmental funding), and a $1500 a year tax credit (or something like that) for homeschool parents (toward material and training costs, as well as educational travel). This kind of system would enfranchise families with strong religious convictions (who have felt disenfranchised by our Prussian public school system for decades, and have been unwilling to support significant increases in funding), as well as wealthy families (whose enfranchisment is sadly necessary for a generously funded k-12 education system).

"I was trying to think up an opinion on this subject, but . . ." Something about that, Matt. I guess I'm just glad it's your job, not mine, to have an opinion about everything.

As a (many year ago) attendee of a same sex high school and a same sex college, may I express the perhaps contrarian position that same sex high schools are a terrible ides, and same sex colleges, granted we had women's schools nearby and shared classes, a very good idea?

Next they'll be suggesting a return to racially segregated schools, and you'll all be saying, "let's see how it goes."

If no one else is going to say it, I will: Co-ed rules!

Haven't been in school in years, and I have no idea what the data shows, but from my experience some decades ago, I'd say that it's a richer and better experience when the boys and girls learn together.

Besides, especially in high school, who wants to spend all day in class with the same sex. Except for Catholic seminaries, I wouldn't recommend it.

Like all education it is not size fits all answer. Some boys and some girls will do better in single - sex classes. Others will do better in co-ed. There may be an argument for segregating on other factors too, height for instance, or family income, or race, but that does not mean there is no moral problem with doing it. Outside of academics men and women have to get along, so maybe school is a good place to teach them to do that.

isn't the obvious reason to be against single-sex education that it's more fun to go to school with people you're interested in hooking up with?
Posted by: zw on October 25, 2006 09:37 PM

If you are a high school student, then the answer is yes. But if you're an adult, thinking about what's best for your (and society's) kids, then maximizing their opportunities for hooking up is not really foremost among the concerns. We don't pay the taxes, build the buildings, and pay the teachers in order to provide kids with a convenient pickup scene.

Anyway, the only non-co-ed experience I ever had was at summer camp, but I do remember that the challenge of having to sneak across the lake in canoes to the girls' camp made the whole thing a heckuvalot more exciting.

Agreed, the Collegiate guys are very strange -- but how much of that is a function of single-sex schooling as opposed to being part of that utterly bizarre micro-culture of elite and well-heeled Manhattanites?

This isn't an attack on NYC as a whole, which is a great city, and shouldn't be read as such -- but I will say that from the point of view of this small-town New Englander who went to an elite college with many of the private school Manhattoes, their effete arrogance and maddening sense of entitlement was more notable as a feature of geography and class than of gender-environments. Take the beam out of thine own eye, Yglesias!

It should be noted, however, that the Deerfield-Hotchkiss-Choate axis of preppiedom is far more f*cked up than the Collegiate guys ever were. Bloody malevolent debutantes.

"Next they'll be suggesting a return to racially segregated schools, and you'll all be saying, "let's see how it goes."'

In practice, large numbers of such schools exist, though they are not mandated to be uniracial.

There are suggestions for such schools explicitly, not just in the white community. I recall a plan for Black-only schools in the Detroit area.

As for how it's going, I think it is not going well.

I went to a single-sex public high school (with such illustrious alumni as Noam Chomski and Larry Fine of the 3 stooges). I can say that it seemed to be a much better environment for learning than my friends in co-ed highschools had. Of course, learning isn't all you do in highschool, so that isn't the end of discussion.

One of the oddities of my school was the correlation of academics and athletics. The best students were quite likely to be good athletes, and the best athletes were likely to be good students. Class rank was a "grab-the-crotch-and-strut" topic, and football was not shameful barbarism. I didn't see that in the co-ed schools of my friends.

I went to a all-girl's Catholic school from 7th - 12th grade, and in retrospet, I think it was a good thing. I was messed up enough without adding boys in the classroom. Saying that, my qualifications for college were out of state, no religious affiliation, and co-ed. I don't think going to a co-ed college would have hurt but I don't think it would have helped either. I may be a little crazy, and not have had a date in a while, but that has nothing to do with going to a co-ed school and more to do with the fact that I live in D.C. and am past my twenties.

This one is simple.

It doesn't matter if there are theoretical benefits to sex-segregated schools. And it doesn't matter if there are studies that show kids in same-sex schools do better.

What matters is the opportunity for abuse. There is a patriarchy. And it will screw the girls over. It will.

It's really that simple.

What matters is the opportunity for abuse. There is a patriarchy. And it will screw the girls over. It will.

It's really that simple.

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