Torture, Does It Work?
Jim Henley tries to draw a distinction: "It’s not that you’ll never get good information via torture. It’s that you’ll never be sure, absent checking and rechecking, whether the information you got was any use. Perhaps I should say, 'was true.' Obviously al Libbi’s statements were 'useful' - they were used to sell a war that our rulers were set on having. None of this has anything to do with our old friend, the Ticking Bomb Scenario."
I would put it slightly differently. The issue here is systems. Not, if we employ systematic torture will we learn some true things, but if we employ systematic torture will we improve our intelligence overall? I think the answer to the latter question, drawing on history and the recent American experience, is pretty clearly "no." The bad information, and the problems caused by needing to weed it out, outweigh the former. As I've said before, the problem of intelligence isn't that we need "more information" it's that it's hard to distinguish the accurate information from the garbage. What torture mostly does is increase the garbage/accurate ratio.
Comments
Torture is great for forcing confessions but worthless for obtaining reliable information. This should be obvious. It's only not obvious to the extent that we want to justify hurting someone. So rightwing haters are great at believing that torture works; and liberals like me, who love terrorists, have trouble believing that anyone could be that stupid.
I think we have to recognize that torture does "work" in a couple of ways. Dictatorial regimes use it to (1) elicit false confessions, which have some value to the regime and (2) to terrorize a population of people. Number (2) is the sense in which torture itself can be a form of terrorism, rather than a way of fighting terrorism.
I suspect that right-wingers support it because it asserts the power of the State, and they love authority, which they think exists for their benefit. And in a terrible failure of imagination they think they and their peers will never be among the group of people who could be tortured.
Whether it "works" or not, of course, it is simply repugnant and wrong.
I'm against torture and see every reason to discourage it. I never expect it to vanish.
But I would disagree with Gary about whether it works. It often does, but not quite in the way he may think about it.
It is the collection of tiny fragments of information that make interrogation work. Very seldom will one person reveal all.
Suspects give answers they think will both deceive and relieve. The deceptions is often quite useful when compared to what is known from other means.
e.g.
If the suspect says he visited in Paris with his friend Abdul and it is known that he did, then Abdul may not be quite as interesting as Omarr, with whom he had lunch today, but denies ever meeting at all.
Incidently, among those right-wing haters who are great at believing torture works you can include Bill Clinton as an anyone who could be that stupid.
Well heck dude, what if we tortured everybody? I mean everybody! Like libertarianism and true communism, this is a "system" that has not yet had a fair and complete trial. If we start the torture as soon as children reach the verbal stage, and make certain that everyone knows they will be tortured weekly... Or perhaps simply torture a random 10% of a given population.
I think we need double-blind studies.
Even if torture worked, it should be illegal. Ticking bomb scenarios are fictional fantasies. I can posit them too: Imagine a madman had his finger on a doomsday button that would blow up the world and only raping a 9 year old girl and eating her liver would stop him. Surely we should rape the girl and eat her liver. Should we make this the law? No.
If there is a law against torture, and a ticking bomb scenario arises, then Jack Bauer will do what he has to do (we are talking about a TV show aren't we boys?), and the president will pardon him. That's how it is done; not by passing laws encouraging our enemies to torture our children.
We've got a lot of jails and prisons in the US. Over the years, many law enforcement officers have believed that the use of various pyhsical coersion techniques was imperative to overcome what they viewed as imminent threats.
Imagine that we kept prisoners in 50 degree (cold) jail cells; naked or nearly naked; bound in restraints -- and used other such extreme physical and psychological coersion techniques on a regular basis for virtually all prisoners in jails and prisons all across the US. Imagine how you would view law enforcement personnel and government officials in such a country.
Now imagine how the rest of the world will soon view the US.
We might as well start talking about the various merits of cannibalism and human sacrifice as well.
Consider the famous ticking bomb scenario. You torture someone who doesn't know, being a foreigner who has holed up somewhere with a TV and a blowtorch, and the only placename he knows is the Hello Deli. (Too much Letterman). The police descend in force on Hello Deli and the bomb goes on at MOMA.
Well, it just goes to show. It's always something. At least you get to torture people, and that's always been the point.
As Alastair Horne discusses in "A Savage War of Peace" (Algeria), torture may in fact enable a tactical victory like the Battle of Algiers, but in the long run just increases the numbers of people arrayed against you. I wonder if anyone on the National Security Council has read this book.
To say that we get both good and bad information is ridiculous. Jorge Louis Borges wrote a parable about an infinite library in which every possible book was on a shelf. The problem was you had a zero chance of finding a truthful book, and even would you find one -- possible -- you would have no idea if it is so.
In that extreme, the infinite library gives you exactly zero of information.
Ticking bomb scenario is preposterous in many ways. It assumes almost perfect knowledge -- you know the culprit, we know that the bomb is ticking -- and yet not perfect. Normally either you have at best a vague idea what a guy is up to, or you really know. Number two, no law enforcement officer would be found guilty by a jury in such a situation -- and they know it so no law is necessary. Number three, not only such a law is not necessary, it is futile, because it really takes some knowledge and experience to successfully torture information out of a person, so we would need to have personel with skills kept sharp by constant application.
But it get worse. Tortuting is addictive, to people who do it and to people who rely on it and who get unhealthy kick from reading reports and planning it. We tortured the same group of people for years, and now that it is somewhat difficult to get new victims, our only chance to continue our habit is to keep them forever. To that end we have to change laws, break treaties, break the Constitution, because we cannot stop, it is, is, necessary. Why? Do not ask stupid questions, didn't I say 'necessary'?! (This is an addict speaking when you threaten his fix).
So now we have people who are addicted to torture and who are in charge, so they must show that torture is useful, so they must pursue crappy leads obtained through torture, preferably, by torturing some fresh victims.
if we employ systematic torture will we improve our intelligence overall? I think the answer to the latter question, drawing on history and the recent American experience, is pretty clearly "no."
Um, links, please?
I mean, it's all well and nice to cite "history" and "the recent American experience". But I would think that someone who claims to be in the Reality-Based Community might want to cite a WEEEEEE bit more specific evidence. Frankly, I don't think that Matthew actually HAS any more specific evidence, but I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.
For example, what evidence does Matthew have that the torture increases the "garbage/accurate ratio"??? And, no, theorizing that it's, well, just got to, ain't actual evidence.
Moreover, I think it's just plain false that "the problem of intelligence isn't that we need 'more information'." After all, I can think of PLENTY of types of "more information" we could use - like, say, oh, I dunno, WHERE IS OBL??? It's not like we're just having trouble weeding out the good "where is OBL info" from the bad "where is OBL info". We simply don't have ANY "where is OBL" info. So we BOTH need more information AND need to be able to weed good info from bad.
Quote from Al -- It's not like we're just having trouble weeding out the good "where is OBL info" from the bad "where is OBL info". We simply don't have ANY "where is OBL" info.---
Don't know where you've been Al but just last month there were reports that OBL is in Pakistan; other reports that he's in Pakistan dead; etc.
As to your argument about proof that torture doesn't work, it's doubtful that you're going to find a definitive study published by any of the various intelligence agencies. Nevertheless, if you read or watch news, or review the recent congressional hearings on the subject, you could find lots of reliable support for Matthew's statements all by yourself -- but let me put it to you this way; if torture does work, why are you still asking in October 2006, "where is OBL"?
Thanks
Best regards
mirc
mirç
mırc
mırç
mircturk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mirc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırcturk
turkmırc
mırc turk
turk mırc
turkiyemirc
türkiyemirc
turkiye mirc
türkiye mirc
mircturkiye
mirctürkiye
mirc turkiye
mircturk
turkmırc
muhabbet
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc chat
mırc ındır
mirc ındır
Türkçe mirc
Türkce mirc
Turkçe mirc
Türkce mirc
Türkçe mırc
Türkce mırc
Turkçe mırc
Turkce mırc
mirc
mirc
forum
forum
turkforum
turkiyeforum
mirc
turkmirc
toplist
site ekle
pagerank
turkmirc
turkforum
sohbet
chat
sohbet odaları
bedava sohbet
bedava chat
türk
karar
http://www.ekmekmusafcarpsin.com/
Thanks Best Regards
mirc
mırc
mırç
mircturk
mirctürk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mırc indir
mirç indir
mirc yükle
mırc yükle
mirc yukle
mırc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırc turk
mircada
mircturkiye
muhabbet
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc chat
mırc ındır
mirc ındır
türkçe mirc
turkce mirc
turkçe mırc
turkce mırc
oper mirc
sohbet
forum
chat
online sinema
catlak
türk forum
turk forum
kafkas
kafkasya
ders
siyaset
izmir
karşiyaka
karsiyaka
forum
karsıyaka
sohbet
harbiarkadas.com
harbiarkadas.net
harbiarkadas.org
itirafet.org
ebedava.net
elektronikmarket.net
ameribress.com
clitoriacream.net
superspenisbuyutucu.com
megabress.com
rednightperformans.com
performansartirici.com
penisplus.tv
penispluspenisbuyutucu.com
penispluspenisbuyutucu.net
cinselmerkez.com
aseks.net
erotikcamasirlar.com
vajinatr.com
bakirevajina.com
cinselkozmetik.com
kozmetikmedikel.com
eturknet.com
tecavuz.net
yutuvideo.com
ponotubesex.com
laraperuk.com
sackanagimerkezi.com
peruksa.com
perukmarket.com
aseks.com
aloveshop.com
erotikgiyim.com
geciktiricispreyler.com
geciktiricihap.com
geciktiriciler.com
azdirici.com
bayanuyarici.com
fntazialemi.com
fantaziservisi.om
cinselmazemeler.com
cinselfantaziurunleri.com
erotikdakikalar.com
erotikmarketiniz.com
seksmarketiniz.com
sekshatlari.com
erotikdergiler.com
erotikderginiz.com
penisbuyutucuviprx.com
penisbuyutucuvigrx.com
penisbuyutuculer.com
vigrxpenisbuyutucu.com
sismebebekler.com
sismebebekshop.com
yemekeviniz.com
sanalmarketiniz.com
elektronikmarket.net
ebedava.net
kontortr.com
elaydin23.com
turkcellkontorcu.com
aveakontoral.com
vodafonekontoral.com
toptankontorcu.com
cinselkozmetik.com
bayanpartnerler.com
erkekpartnerler.com
kizarkadaslar.com
yonjaarkadas.com
siberalem-siberalem.com
sexpartnerler.com
sekspartnerler.com
erotikpartnerler.com
gencyuz.com
erkekarkadaslar.com
bayanarkadaslar.com
yemekeviniz.com
sanalmarketiniz.com
baskahaber.com
medikalkozmetik.net
kozmetikmedikal.com
zayiflamavediyet.net
zayiflamahapii.com
zayiflamabandii.com
kilovertr.com
zayiflamatr.net
diyettr.com
toksinbandi.net
botoxtr.com
botokstr.com
selulittedavii.com
selulitgiderici.net
selulitkremii.com
catlaktedavisii.com
catlakgiderici.net
catlakkremii.com
penis büyütücü
Post A Comment