A Choice, Not an Echo

Thanks for the afternoon chuckle.

Women have a right to make their own reproductive decisions

Gotta love the continued refusal to address the question of the human embryo and whether it is worthy of any legal protection.

families have a right to make end of life decisions

For whom? In what situation? Or is it just carte blanche?

Great point, but I think we have nothing to lose by nodding politely with those who say that this was a win for "conservative Democrats".

In fact, I think we should echo that analysis all over the place: "this was a win for CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS."

Let's help the wingnuts link "conservative" with "Democrat" every chance we get. If we're successful, that cedes only the fascist end of the political spectrum to the Republican party.

Meanwhile, all of those CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS can raise the minimum wage, negotiate for better medicare drug prices, and end illegal surveillance, among other conservative acts.

All I know is, John Sununu is politically a dead man walking.

She also advocates expanding medicare to cover every citizen.

"I will work to guarantee Social Security's long-term health by voting to put a Social Security tax on someone's full income, not just the first $90,000."

I like that 'someone'.

"Women have a right to make their own reproductive decisions."

Gotta love the continued refusal to address the question of the human embryo and whether it is worthy of any legal protection.

Alright. The embryo is not a human being, and in a situation in which we have to decide whether to protect the rights of a human being versus protect the rights of something that is not a human being, well, I, and most Americans for that matter, choose the former.

Another episode of easy answers to easy questions.

I agree with Tom Ames.

We should continue to reinforce the theme of CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS. The more we talk about it, the more power the Democrats will have to do what they (and most Americans) want.

If left-wing Democrats are thinking strategically, they'll get behind the CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS theme and say it with a straight face.

I hate to nitpick, but this is something we're all going have to learn.

There is no 'C' in Heath Shuler. Presumably this is because his ancestors came from Germany/Austria/Alsace-Lorraine at a different time than Chuck Schumer's.

oneangryslav,

If you are saying that “in a situation in which we have to decide whether to protect the rights of a human being versus protect the rights of something that is not a human being” most American choose the to protect the rights of the former you are correct. If you are saying that most Americans believe that a human embryo is not a human being than you are wrong.

I love the notion that the proper home for common-sense conservatives is in the Democratic Party. Shout it from the rooftops.

It's clear that pushing this meme is a strategic disaster for Republicans. The reason we hear it from them is not based on logic, but on the fact that so many Republicans are motivated from day one by nothing more than hatred of liberals.

All Rush Limbaugh's audience cares about is that this election not be considered in any way, shape or form as a victory for liberals. Fine. Let them have what they want.

There is no 'C' in Heath Shuler.

But there is a 'L'. (Brought to you from the 'M' and 'E' in team.)

Somebody should just make a list of all the new congressfolk and then count heads.

For the eight new Senators (besides Klobchar who I know nothing about), for each set of issues I count four Senators on the left half of the caucus, and four on the right half. So our new Dems are just like our current Dems.

Not sure about the House.

Here's some food for thought: with the entry of Vilsack into the presidential race, the Iowa caucuses have been demoted in importance - since Vilsack will be a favorite son lock there - and the New Hanpshire primary has consequently been elevated in importance. And New Hampshire now appears to be a decisively more liberal state than it once was.

Our Democratic governor won 74% of the vote. Democrats picked up 88 seats in the House of Representatives and now control both houses for the first time in living memory. Both US congressional districts switched from Republicans to unabashedly progressive Democrats. I'm so loving this.

Mark Adams,

Of course an embryo is a human being. "Human being" is a species description. Whether an embryo is a PERSON or not is what is under debate.

Defining "personhood" as magically adhering to an embryo at the moment of conception is a religious and metaphysical conceit that most Americans may or may not agree with.

There is no empirical evidence supporting the claim, however. Furthermore, I wonder just how many Americans actually believe it to be true? If most Americans hold that embryos are people, as you claim, why is there a general level of comfort with the process of in vitro fertilization, which results in the destruction of MANY embryos?

I suspect that people don't really think too much about the distinctions. They're happy to be outraged when the religious right projects images of cooing babies onto the reality of a blastocyst. But if someone want to get pregnant at the cost of a couple of dozen of them, they really don't seem to give a damn.

This kind of sloppy moral reasoning ought not to provide the foundation for depriving women of the right to control their own reproductive destinies.

88 seats?? How big is the state house? Does each legislator represent, like, twenty people?

I guess this isn't working out too well for the folks involved...

since Vilsack will be a favorite son lock there

My understanding is that Vilsack is polling something like 4th. I agree the importance will be reduced, but I wouldn't write it off just yet.

88 seats?? How big is the state house? Does each legislator represent, like, twenty people?

I believe it has 400 seats, and describes itself as the third largest legilative body in the English-speaking world. Gven the current population of about 1,310,000, that comes out to one rep for every 3275 people,

For whom? In what situation? Or is it just carte blanche?

I'm sure she means that everyone should be allowed to kill everyone else as long as they belong to some sort of family. Thanks for pointing out the hidden implications.

That's pretty amazing, Dan. I know some high schools with more than 3275 people.

That's pretty amazing, Dan. I know some high schools with more than 3275 people.

It's a very, very strange situation. Pretty much any New Hampshire-ite who's interested in politics winds up running for the state legislature at some point.

I'm sure she means that everyone should be allowed to kill everyone else as long as they belong to some sort of family. Thanks for pointing out the hidden implications

I'm sure that is not what she meant. I only meant to illustrate how devoid of any meaningful content such a statement is. It's nice to say families should make end-of-life decisions but how that gets worked in the nitty-gritty reality of any given situation is much more complex and much more susceptible to ethically dubious conduct than people realize.

Tom Ames,

Of course an embryo is a human being. "Human being" is a species description. Whether an embryo is a PERSON or not is what is under debate.

Yes, I realize this and I wish more people would acknowledge it. My problem is that the typical language of pro-choicers makes it sound as if anti-abortion people simply don't want women to do as they wish with their body while ignoring the whole argument of the anti-abortion side that once pregnancy occurs there is more than the women's body involved, there is now a second life that has to be taken into account.

Defining "personhood" as magically adhering to an embryo at the moment of conception is a religious and metaphysical conceit that most Americans may or may not agree with.

Conferring personhood at any point in human development is metaphysical conceit.

There is no empirical evidence supporting the claim, however. Furthermore, I wonder just how many Americans actually believe it to be true? If most Americans hold that embryos are people, as you claim, why is there a general level of comfort with the process of in vitro fertilization, which results in the destruction of MANY embryos?

I think you are correct. That is why I didn't say that "most Americans hold that embryos are people". I think most Americans don't have a well thought out position (in part for reasons you explained) and depending on how you phrase the question in polls entirely determines on which side of the question the majority falls. For that reason I wouldn't say there is a consensus on either side of the question. As for in vitro you make a good point but I would says that I think there is widespread ignorance among the public about what happens with in vitro. I was shocked at the number of conversations I had with people in connection to the Missouri Amendment 2 who didn't know that multiple human embryos were often frozen as result of each in vitro treatment.

This kind of sloppy moral reasoning ought not to provide the foundation for depriving women of the right to control their own reproductive destinies.

What other issues are people not well informed enough on that they ought to be taken out of the democratic process?

It's nice to say families should make end-of-life decisions but how that gets worked in the nitty-gritty reality of any given situation is much more complex and much more susceptible to ethically dubious conduct than people realize.

As opposed to the ethical clarity that obtains when people like Tom Delay, Bill Frist and Jeb Bush make those end-of-life decisions.

Tom Ames, Where did I say that?

Tome Ames,

And if we are talking about the Terri Schiavo case then I believe her family, you know the people that share her DNA, raised her, and that kind of stuff, wanted to keep her alive. Her long-estranged husband didn't. And a court decided. So can I assume that Carol Shea-Porter thinks that situation came out the wrong way?

What other issues are people not well informed enough on that they ought to be taken out of the democratic process?

I can think of plenty of moral questions that are too complex to be resolved by a majority vote among a public that, as you say, is poorly educated. This is why we have a Constitution.

As to the question of personhood: I have yet to find a pro-lifer who can explain to me how personhood-at-conception can be reconciled with either the twinning of one embryo or the fusion of two. In the first instance, one "person" becomes two, while in the second, two "people" become one. Clearly, in these (not rare) cases, the defining event for personhood takes place well past fertilization. If that's true here, why isn't it always true?

Can you explain where the extra person comes from or goes to in each of these examples?

I was almost following you, Mark, until you said this:

And if we are talking about the Terri Schiavo case then I believe her family, you know the people that share her DNA, raised her, and that kind of stuff, wanted to keep her alive. Her long-estranged husband didn't.

Um, yeah, Mr. Schiavo hadn't spoke to his wife for years because she was in a vegetative state. That tends to happen, you know. There was no estrangement prior to the accident. By your logic, you could just as easily say that her parents were estranged from her too.

That's the kind of sloppy reasoning that will lose you a lot of credibility in a short time.

Tom Ames,

I will try to provide a more complete answer later, but for now I will say that for me, personhood or ensoulment at the moment of conception is not necessary to say that a human embryo shouldn't be killed. It is still, as you concede, a human being.

I'm not sure what problem twinning presents: another embryo is produced through an asexual method. The first embryo remains a the distinct entity it was before. If someone believes in personhood at the moment an embryo comes into existence, then once the second embryo comes about you have a second person.

Fusion I had never heard of but from what I can tell Googling, you have two embryos. One is absorbed into the other such that it dies. Once again, what is the problem? You had two embryos. One remains and one dies.

JP,

Perhaps I used the word incorrectly. I simply meant to refer to the fact that he had lived with another woman for some time and had fathered two children with her.

Do I get any credibility back?

I had a college classmate who was a poli-sci major run for, and serve in, New Hampshire's lower house. She applied for credit, for real-world experience.

The relevant dean gave her only six credit-hours.

Seeing as how, in Schiavo's view, his wife was dead (and, by the way, her parents fully approved of his relationships with other women prior to their falling out with him, which came years later), "estranged" is an inherently misleading and unfair word for you to use. You might not agree with his judgment that his wife was dead, but if that's your basis for denying him the right to take her off the feeding tube, then all you're doing is putting the rabbit in the hat.

Mark,

My point regarding twinning is that personhood clearly cannot be linked to conception. In twinning there IS NO "first embryo". An embryo splits into two. Does the "personhood" also split? Or does the original person stick to one of the two twins while a new person appears and adheres to the other?

With embryo fusion (which has only recently been described in the scientific literature) two distinct embryos become one. It's not that one dies and is absorbed by the other. Rather, where there were two genetically distinct embryos, after the event there is only one mosaic that remains to become an actual person. Where did the other person go when the embryos fused? Is the personhood of the fused embryo somehow greater than the personhood of a normal embryo?

These are not meant to be flippant questions. Anyone holding the serious belief that an embryo has a unique personal identity has to confront the fact that that personal identity may be less of a discrete quality than it first appears. These examples demonstrate that the unique and indivisible nature of an early zygote is largely an illusion.

Carol Shea-Porter for President!

The media's definition of 'conservative' is 'electable'. ipso facto, a bunch of conservative democrats got elected. Obviously the 'mericun people would NEVER elect dirty hippy liberals.

On DKos the other day, someone was disappointed at having to choose between two conservatives (Hoyer and Murtha) for Majority Leader, and suggested Carol Shea-Porter instead. You have to forgive us, we're pretty new at this governance thing.

Gotta love the continued refusal to address the question of the human embryo and whether it is worthy of any legal protection.

Easy question.

'Human embryos have no legally enforceable rights that superceed those of born, adult human persons.'

Next in line, please?

Re: She takes a shockingly unnuanced stance on abortion: "Women have a right to make their own reproductive decisions, and families have a right to make end of life decisions."

What's so odd about that? Outside of GOP/Religious Right circles it's a pretty normal, mainstream opinion. Indeed, on the second part of it, recall that the Terri Schiavo business was the beginning of the end of the GOP dominion, and even some Republicans (including the new governor elect of Florida) agreed with the opinion expressed above.

If conservative is going to mean social democrat from now on, then perhaps liberal will go back to meaning free market, which IME is its general usage here in Yurp.

Does the American left use "liberal" as much it did? I read a few left pundits, and amongst them progressive seems the preferred term.

What program of Shea-Porter shows that hill-folk of NH have no appreciation of nuance, unlike suave denizens of, say, New York (I will not say "inside the Beltway", because people come to that "inside" from somewhere, like Michigan -> Arkansas -> New York -> Beltway).

Right wing policies do not work, try left wing policies. Why not trying small incremental changes until we get it right?

Mark Adams thinks that Shea-Porter should have put out a two-page densely-reasoned essay on end-of-life care, instead of just a soundbite line. I agree. That's the Democratic thing to do, and it worked so well for Dukakis and Kerry.

piotr: Hilary is originally from Illinois, not Michigan.
JonF: Actually, most polls show that the percentage of Americans who supported completely unrestricted abortion on demand is somewhere in the twenties.
Something that applies to Ms. Shea-Porter, Mr. Shuler, and everyone in between is that it is hard to know how much voters voted because of their issue positions and how much voters voted as a protest against the Republicans. We should see which of these Democrats get re-elected next time before we make any definitve conclusions about the drift of the Democratic party on the country.

James: thanks for a correction.

About "20% only supporting abortion on demand".

Since majority supports the right to abortion, it stands to reason that 30+% agrees on abortion only in the cases when the woman does not demand it. Or in a case when a board of politicians that nobody trust agrees with her.

Absurd? Well, it is rather futile to nuance the pro-choice stand, and there is a certain charm in clarity. My true point is that this ca. 30% voters who are in the zone "abortion rights with restriction" have more of feelings on the matter rather than a position, so they can be impressed with "irrelevant factors" like sincerity. Ponder how wingnuts used to collect points for "sincerity".

On a cynical note, a succesful politician should have a combination of "couragous position" with outright pandering, so the question is: what combinations can work and are good for us.

I realize this thread is dead now but I am only now getting the opportunity to respond to some of these final comments.

Seeing as how, in Schiavo's view, his wife was dead (and, by the way, her parents fully approved of his relationships with other women prior to their falling out with him, which came years later)

JP, I couldn't care less whether her parents approved are not.

"estranged" is an inherently misleading and unfair word for you to use.

I already acknowledged once that it may have been a poor choice of words.

You might not agree with his judgment that his wife was dead, but if that's your basis for denying him the right to take her off the feeding tube, then all you're doing is putting the rabbit in the hat."

Actually I haven't made any argument at all about what should have happen to Terri Schiavo. In fact I wasn't the one who brought up the topic. But her situation is actually a pretty perfect illustration of my original point: saying end of life decisions should be made by the family is not a very helpful statement of principle. Terri's mom, father and siblings all wanted to keep her alive. The man she married, who went on to live with another woman, have two children with that woman, and become engaged to that woman, did not want to keep her alive. And who decided what happened to Terri? A judge. So I ask again, If Ms. Shea-Porter wants families to make end of life decisions, does this mean she opposes the outcome of the Terri Schiavo situation? Without making any judgement on the rightness or wrongness of Michael's actions w/r/t/ the other woman, I can't imagine any objective person looking at that situation and saying that Michael was somehow more Terri's family than her mother, father and siblings.

These are not meant to be flippant questions. Anyone holding the serious belief that an embryo has a unique personal identity has to confront the fact that that personal identity may be less of a discrete quality than it first appears. These examples demonstrate that the unique and indivisible nature of an early zygote is largely an illusion.

Tom Ames, I do not take them as flippant questions and I appreciate you asking them. Unfortunately I simply do not know enough about biology/embryology to give an adequate answer. While I acknowledge that the issue of twinning presents interesting and difficult metaphysical questions, it doesn't pose any problems to saying that because of the very fact that determining the point at which personhood comes about is inherently speculative, we ought to err on the side of caution and all human life ought to be given some sort of legal protection.

As for a more thorough answer to your question Tom, here is a piece by Patrick Lee and Robert P. George. I plagiarised some of my original answer to you from this article: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/13/leegeorge.htm

Uh this post was not about fuckin' embryos. Plz grind your own tired axes up on your own blogs.

Mark Adams probably posted the same comment at fifteen other popular Democratic blogs today.

tps12,

Actaully I didn't post my comments on any other Democratic blogs.

Also, several people engaged me on the points I brought up so I am not sure why you get to tell me that I have to go somewhere else.

It's speculative to say that personhood begins at any exact point in time, granted. But it is not speculative to say that an embryo is not a person. If one defines personhood by possession of any distinctly human faculties (as opposed to the arbitrary and assumed presence of a "soul"), and one puts any creedence at all in scientific and medical knowledge about where human faculties come from, then the fact that an embryo lacks a brain is dispositive. The brain is the source of such human characteristics as intelligence, consciousness of self, emotional life, etc. This simple knowledge is the source of most peoples' intuitive understanding that an early-stage embryo is not a person and e.g. one should not be penalized for murder for arranging a first trimester abortion.

There is no biblical support for the position that personhood begins at conception. Traditional societies did not punish abortion as murder. For almost two thousand years the Catholic church held that an early-stage embryo is not a person.

Frankly I think this whole brouhaha is a result of cultural backlash by a particular branch of Christianity against the combination of feminism and the sexual revolution. The anti-abortion people think the whole single people having sex thing has gotten out of control, and they want an excuse for thinking liberals are mass murderers. That's the source of this, not dubious pseudo-religious assertions.

P.S. just to be clear, my pro-choice position has some basis in my scientific beliefs, but one can perfectly well be religious and be pro-choice. THe larger point is that an embryo is not a person, because, well, it's just obviously not. It can't do any person-type things at all. Most societies and Christians through most times in history have had no problem recognizing this. The knowledge that the embryo is not a person because it doesn't have a brain is just an extra scientific twist. But you know, the obvious has never held people back when there's a cultural need to whip up a reactionary movement.

There has been an exodus of people leaving MA and entering NH because of the housing market. I suspect Shea Porter's win is due to the densely populated Southern NH. NH is changing liberal with social and foreign policy opinions, although I suspect economically the big T word is still not popular.

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