Goals
So press conference:
"We began the year with optimism after watching nearly 12 million Iraqis go to the polls to vote for a unity government and a free future. The enemies of liberty responded fiercely to this advance of freedom."
We're in Iraq to build a democracy.
"And I want the enemy to understand that this is a tough task, but they can't run us out of the Middle East; that they can't intimidate America."
No, we're in Iraq to find a permanent base for US military forces in the Middle East or, at a minimum, to demonstrate resolve detached from specific policy goals.
"What is going to happen is we're going to develop a strategy that helps the Iraqis achieve the objective that the 12 million people want them to achieve, which is a government that can -- a country that can sustain itself, govern itself, defend itself."
No, we're in Iraq to build a internally stable government.
"A free country that will serve as an ally in this war against extremists and radicals."
No, we're in Iraq to create a government that will take America's side in regional disputes.
Needless to say these are different and, in some ways, contradictory goals. This is why we're not winning in Iraq and never will. We don't have coherent objectives we're pursuing. And there is no set of objectives such that the objectives are both achievable and worth the cost of achieving them. The sane thing to do at this point is to set a goal of removing American troops from the killing zone quickly and then to start thinking and arguing about how, exactly, this can be done in a way that minimizes risks to the troops and the rest of the region.
Comments
Am I the only person driven crazy by the fact that you are not supposed to "win" a war of liberation and subsequent occupation - just terminate it with positive results for all involved? The Allies won the war against Germany; they did not "win" the war against France even though (1) there was fighting between Allid and non-Allied French troops (2) the Allies occupied much of France for several months until the French re-organized their own govenment.
Cranky
Be a real bitch if a democratically elected Iraqi government voted to declare war on the United States. Or at a minimum "run us out of the Middle East" (a peaceful, just get the hell out request of course). Ol' Dubya's head would just explode.
The war in Iraq is a floor wax and a dessert topping!
completely irregardless of the specific policies the president has advanced, how stupid they have been and how mendacious the administration has been (remember, assume a can opener...), i have come to find bush's rhetoric SO TIRED.
what i'm trying to say here is that if you divorce yourself from the fact that they are all stupid policies (all of the iraq related ones anyway, lets not get started domestically, DPRK, etc.) and that his vision of himself and his legacy is laughable, if you want to use rhetorical devices to advance these policies, please pick some new ones. we have heard the same stuff for over 5 years (with the terms being conveniently or tragically fungible), the whole "enemies of liberty, freedom on the march, good vs. evil dichotomy" thing is just so played.
seeing as how i don't support these policies, i don't see it as my job to come up with solutions. but if i am going to have to hear bush defend this ridiculousness for 2 more years, it would be great if they could find some other devices. i wonder if this is why gerson quit, if he was sick of writing speeches like we're in the middle of the fucking apocalypse.
The goal is to be at war, not to win a war.
divguy -
snap! reminds me, i was watching simpsons reruns last night (marge and the 1st amendment) and there was the TV ad for the "it's a tool that every home handyman needs! It's a jigsaw! It's a power drill! It's a wood-turning lathe! It's an asphalt spreader! It's 67 tools in one! How much would you pay for a machine that can do all this?" apparently bush hasn't reached his limit.
About $8 billion worth of government checks get sent to Bush's cronies every single month we stay in Iraq no matter what is going in Iraq or in the debate about what to do about Iraq.
That's the only "coherent objective" staying in Iraq achieves.
Isn't that enough?
'About $8 billion worth of government checks get sent to Bush's cronies every single month we stay in Iraq no matter what is going in Iraq or in the debate about what to do about Iraq.
That's the only "coherent objective" staying in Iraq achieves.
Isn't that enough?'
Like I said..
The goal is to be at war, not to win a war.
> The goal is to be at war, not to win a war.
Agreed. This is what Cheney wanted, and he is ensuring his friends get at least 4 more years of it.
Cranky
The goal is to be at war, not to win a war.
Precisely so. Long before bin Laden saved Bush's sorry political career, lots of Beltway factions were hard at work ginning up China as Our New Necessary Enemy.
This post is not very illuminating. It ignores unstated objectives.
I suspect the problem is that in the little man's fractured brain, he really doesn't see the incoherency. I really think he believes that we can a) bring democracy b) that results in a stable government c) that would be allied with the US and d) that we won't be intimidated from that task by enemies of democracy. Which is to say that our problem isn't just that our goals are incoherent, but that our leader doesn't even understand that they're incoherent.
I get the impression that the underlying assumption of neoconservatism (and Friedmanism), though generally left unsaid, is that the reason "democracy is the answer" is not that it's a fairer, wiser, or better system of government, but rather that it's a handy tool by which we can use our wealth, power, and military might to distort foreign electorates and cudgel their governments into bowing to our interests in a way that's more difficult to do in autocracies and theocracies. The reason, if you believe there's a reason, that no war has broken out between two nations with a McDonald's, as Friedman has said, (and I believe this is no longer the case,) isn't that Big Macs turn people into happy, peace-loving fluffy bunnies, but that McDonald's Corp. will have enough influence to stop wars and the desire to do so, since a franchise might get demolished. (And of course, this always overlooks business interests that might profit from a war.)
Now, I happen to think democracy is a better system of government, and one we should encourage, and it's just dandy when American interests are aligned with doing what's right, but this neoconservative idea isn't just a bad moral reason for spreading democracy, it also greatly overestimates our ability to control the power levers in foreign countries and manipulate their electorates, makes our motives appear even more disingenuous, further radicalizes opponents of American hegemony, and finally, leads us to cobble together half-assed governments that lack the legitimacy to survive.
Why anyone would buy into a system where we get what we want and they don't get what they want?
No, we're in Iraq to find a permanent base for US military forces in the Middle East or, at a minimum, to demonstrate resolve detached from specific policy goals.
Actually, they used to admit this quite openly, without the coded references. Now you get labeled as a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist for merely bringing this up. What a memory hole this country has, eh?
No, we're in Iraq to create a government that will take America's side in regional disputes.
This was never a real goal of the Iraq adventure from what I could tell, but substitute Israel for America and you get what was being spread about the war in order to ensure: (1) a bunch of Zionist-types who get off on conforming to the worst anti-Semitic stereotypes (and then getting huffy when people "blame" them for anti-Semitism as it's never the victim's fault) of the sort who generally have more money and political pull than sense supported the war and (2) that reflexive anti-Zionists would be sure to oppose the war and thus allow opposition to the war to be tarnished by linkage with anti-Semitism. I think factor (2) was more important than some people realize. The neo-cons may not be clever enough to have launched a successful Iraq adventure (nor smart enough to have known not to have done so in the first place), but they sure do know how to goad their opposition into shooting themselves in the foot.
In politics in general, sometimes your success is based not on who you get onto your side but who you get to oppose you. The GOP has been very successful with this in general. Too many Dems, OTOH, have been so intent on trying not to piss off anyone they forget that part of winning an election is to piss off the right people so that way other people will vote for you since you've pissed off people that piss them off. It's part and parcel of divide and conquer. In general and specifically in the run up to the Iraq war, the GOP has been very good at this. In general, it's a lesson we Dems. need to learn if we want to solidify our 2006 victories. In specific, we need to remember about the Iraq war that specific "reasons" for the Iraq war given by GOoPers may not really be reasons for the war, but may have just been suggested to rally opposition around opposing those reasons and thus making the opposition look bad. So in analyzing "how and why we got into this mess in the first place so we can avoid it happening again", we need to be careful about whom we blame and why ...
No, we're in Iraq to find a permanent base for US military forces in the Middle East or, at a minimum, to demonstrate resolve detached from specific policy goals.
How in the world does Matthew get this???
Obviously the point of Bush's statement is that we don't want to be run out of Iraq before our specific policy goals are achieved. Bush is in fact saying the exact opposite of what Matthew is claiming.
No, we're in Iraq to create a government that will take America's side in regional disputes.
This also is a mischaracterization of the statement, I think. We're in Iraq to create a government that will take America's side in the struggle against extremism. But I don't see how Matthew morphs this into something larger - I mean, it says nothing about taking our side in, say, the Israel-Palestine problem.
"We're in a war for whatever sounds good in the next breath..."
Obviously we're in Iraq because George Bush wants to be at war in Iraq. Sometimes, I waffle between thinking that George Bush doesn't realize that he isn't being coherent or intelligent or humane on Iraq and thinking that he just really couldn't care less. Mostly, he just doesn't care.
Al, your reliance on deliberate obtuseness as a rhetorical strategy is wearisome.
Obviously the point of Bush's statement is that we don't want to be run out of Iraq before our specific policy goals are achieved.
What goal?
"We're in Iraq to create a government that will take America's side in the struggle against extremism. But I don't see how Matthew morphs this into something larger - I mean, it says nothing about taking our side in, say, the Israel-Palestine problem.
Posted by: Al on December 20, 2006 03:23 PM"
So Iran and Hezbollah no longer count as extremists, that an ally of ours should not support? Really, keep lowering the goals and eventually you'll get to something we can accompish in Iraq. Of course then you'll have to explain how *that* was worth so many deaths and taxpayer dollars.
but there isn't a way to pull out and minimize damage. We just have to say fuck it and get the hell out. This civil war was going to be fought eventually anyways (unless saddam's progengy could perpetually hold the hold the wolf by the ears). The best we can do is sort of referee the bloodbath. Make sure Baghdad doesn't frickin burn or the violence doesn't escalate to full-fledged genocide. Otherwise, all apologies world.
What goal?
I think the other three quotes/paraphrases say it pretty well: a [nascent] democracy, an internally stable government, and a government that will take the US side against extremists.
So, if the goal is "[nascent] democracy", what is the metric of success? Which of the following are democracies that would satisfy this goal: Egypt, Lebanon, Israel, Iran, Pakistan, Chile, Venezuela, Finland, Russia, Kenya, Colombia, Nicaragua, Bahrain, France, Libya, Qatar, Congo, Sri Lanka, Cuba, Mexico, Japan.
I have never seen a Bushevik actually define what they mean by "democracy".
Iraq is a diversion. As the army attacks Iraq, the US gov't erodes rights at home by suspending habeas corpus, stealing private lands, banning books like "America Deceived" from Amazon, rigging elections, conducting warrantless wiretaps and starting 2 illegal wars based on lies. Soon, another US false-flag operation will occur (sinking of an Aircraft Carrier by Mossad) and the US will invade Iran, (on behalf of Israel).
Final link (before Google Books bends to gov't demands and censors the title):
America Deceived (book)
I think the other three quotes/paraphrases say it pretty well: a [nascent] democracy, an internally stable government, and a government that will take the US side against extremists.
So our goals are glittering generalities. Thanks, I was worried there for a second.
The cost of the Iraq war was $10 billion a month in fiscal 2006, and is running $14 billion a month in fiscal 2007. The true cost will be over $2 trillion dollars.
Add to the fact that we the President cannot fix a clear objective, there are at least two more failures of leadership. He also does not allow himself to know who the enemy is - he insists the enemy in Iraq is the one that attacked us on 9/11, for political reasons, namely out of fear of losing public support. And he does not allow himself to know what is happening on the ground, as bad news is evidence of a biased media and too much of it may drain the essential willpower to continue.
Leadership with no clear objective, facing an unknown enemy, in the dark.
That's how you lose a war with the strongest military in history.
Yeah, the point is to be at war...but not just any ole war would do for the neocons.
It had to be a war in a place nobody really cared about...
As far from America as possible and where they don't speak English to minimize information...
And populated by non-Christians to get the "kill the heathens" support.
It was either the Iraqis or the eskimoes...
The big "Special Report" graphic breaks into the Today show with its blaring, excited fanfare and I wonder, "Oh shit, what now?" But it's just a Bush "news" conference, and with it, the unbearable lightness of listening to the Deluded Decider stumble along and do the same old same old one more time. The Unbearable Lightness of Listening to Bush. Not winning, not losing, gonna hang in there, more troops, wouldn't be there if we couldn't succeed. Nothing new and I drive off to work, scanning the radio stations for the news conference. Can't find it. That figures. Must not be important.
Any old war would be (and is) good enough for the paleocon militarists. The geographical location of this one is very particular to neocons.
Ah yes, "a free country that will serve as an ally . . ." That's what they call Democracy, folks.
My wife and I watched a bit of the replay of the conference on C-Span tonight. This isn't the most original observation, but we both felt that listening to Bush is a painful experience. It's a lot like speech class when the kid who can't keep his notes or his thoughts straight has to stretch a few minutes before he can sit down again. We all cringe. We don't expect poetry to come out of his mouth, and we'd settle for a boring monotone. But the awkward pauses, the weird syntax, the frightened, glazed look make us too aware of the strange psychodrama that must be going on in his mind. He's too inarticulate to soften the moment with a light remark, so he perseveres. His desperation is transparent, but he acts as though no one might notice, as if his audience were as blind as he is. It gets surreal, because the reality, if he ever had to face it, would be too painful for him to bear. It's all a farce, a charade, and it goes on: reporters pretend to ask questions and he pretends to answer them. And not a word that's spoken has any meaning at all. And soon everyone is numb. And you have to go numb or else it's too painful to watch.
We were lucky. We just flipped to the next channel.
And if we were the king and queen of TV, we'd have canceled his show long ago.
Now you see this is all part of my plan to establish an Iranian sponsored Shite theocracy in Iraq. When Iraq becomes an extension of Tehran it will be just like when West Germany bought East Germany from the Russians but with more killin'. The Irainians will need to fix all that stuff we bombed (the electric grid is a mother) and take care of all those desperate Iraqis. This in turn will there economy to stall just like in Germany.
By winning the Iraq War we prevent the Iranians from developing the bomb and funding terrorists. You have to look at the long term, big picture global strategy thingie here.
Good comment.Thanks admin.
Thanks
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