Principles

Do these guys not understand the concept of principles?

This is especiallly entertaining coming hot on the heels of Jonah Goldberg's latest pile of droppings, which posited that "liberals" are best characterized to their hostility to any kind of moral certainty.

Characterized by, not to. Obviously.

Well, they could be standing for the principal of "expediency".

Do these guys not understand the concept of principles?

you have to ask?

Even the Pope opposes executing Saddam.

The WaPo editorial page has not yet sunk to the level of the editorial pages of the WSJ or the Moonie Times but they're getting there.

On the merits, I'd point out that we had the choice of trying Saddam pursuant to U.S-type procedures, which would have involved due process up the wazoo but also would have had less legitimacy in the eyes of Iraqis than a trial before an Iraqi tribunal under principles of Iraqi law. We chose the latter, even knowing it would likely result in a trial with more procedural defects. Given a uniquely challenging situation and two imperfect alternatives, I think we made the right call notwithstanding the valid points raised by AI and others.

Matt, they may understand the concept of principles, but certainly not the consistent allegiance to them.

To them, principles are redeemable in any instance for power and self-interest. These real postmodernists preach self-interest as the overriding principle, and since self-interest can be imagined to be just about anything by any particular self, well, you get the moral and political postmodernism.

Whether they realize it or not, and whether they hypocritically pontificate against their own reason for being, really isn't important to them, as they get away with this demogoguing (it even helps them), and it furthers their self-interested power plays, and that's all that matters.

They're scared, stupid, petty people who have a comic book view of the world and are very destructive in their real impact. Worst of all, they could really care less about everyday people or values outside of their own circles.

They do understand the concept of principles, but they dismiss the legitimacy of YOUR principles you dirty hippie.

I do have to speak up in defense of the Post, at least a little. By my reading, the editorial isn't quite as centrally about condemning proceduralists as arguing that the trial was if not perfectly fair then fair enough. Even in the American system we have a concept of "harmless error"---clear procedural mistakes that are so unrelated to the eventual outcome that the Constitution doesn't mandate a do-over. And the Post has something of a point there.

Peretz is still an embarrassment.

Steve, it's never the right call to murder a man. There was no "right call" here. We're the man's accomplices. Everything he's guilty of, Donald Rumsfeld is guilty of as well. It really doesn't matter how legitimate it looked to Iraqis. They'd just be happy to see him punished. We took the easy way out, and only a moral leper would try to rationalize that. The easy way is usually worse than the hard one. It just looks easier.

scum sucking murdering pigs the lot of them. the only policy any of the neo-convict supporters have been able to own has been the maniacal, and disproved on a daily basis, contention that there was any justification whatsoever in threatening, invading, occupying, and murdering outright or being directly responsible for the over 620,000 lives of the now dead, never to return, citizens of a sovereign nation, who wanted and needed only to benefit from the discontinuation of more than a decade of unjust sanctions and united states terrorism following the previous Bush's ham fisted, backstabbing, unilateral, abitrary first invasion, not have a school painted by a "CONtractor" in a bombed out hole that used to be their neighborhood, that no one dare attend, neither teacher or now dismembered children. Saddam Hussein, despite what I'm constantly hearing about the man, did alot better job of keeping sectarian radicals from killing each other and the general population in the middle, and the united nations did a alot better job of monitoring weapons coming into or being developed inside Iraq than the "coalition forces" (read: solely united states and united states taxpayer funded thugs and mercenary murdering outfits), headed by some kind of Howdy Dooty from hell who failed at every miserable thing he ever attempted in his life and had now set his sights, (with his father's urging and willingness to circumvent any sense of political fair play), on being what he prized most for a christmas goodie .... A War President ... oh boy how crisp. They are all going to enjoy Fridays in Hell.

Principles get in the way of indulging one's emotions, which is a much more reliable way to consistently reach an audience that has no time or inclination to actually think about important issues, but plenty of time to register their feelings about them (along with their feelings about reality shows, sports teams, etc.).

I keep coming back to Stephen Colbert's first show and his promise to feel the news at the audience... same thing here, really. Success lies more in mirroring the gut reactions of nonthinkers than in introducing the possibly unsatisfying conclusions that reasoned examination might achieve.

The last Pope came right to the brink of declaring all capital punishment immoral. The exception seemed to be the case where keeping a murderous charismatic alive risked more suffering later, e.g. Napoleon escaping Elba. Saddam is a borderline case. Whatever "charisma" he possessed once is now obviously spread around the minds of his supporters. (Both of them.) But it may be ever thus with charisma. I've heard it said that George Bush is charismatic. (Pause for laughter.)

As for Saddam's procedural rights, that's a ridiculous sell. Iraq is a new country here. His crimes were committed under another set of laws: him. He got to face & question his accusers, call witnesses in his own behalf, and present evidence. They weighed no ducks to see if he was a witch. They examined no pigeon innards. It wasn't perfect, but a trial in which the defendant's enemies and friends are pot-shotting the trial's officials is always going to be dicey.

It is not just an issue of moral principles, there are tactical considerations as well.

The trial of Saddam will never be considered to be in the same class as the Neuremberg trials. The trial was from start to finish a farce with judges being dismissed for being too impartial and defense lawyers being murdered. Rather than demonstrating the return of law and order to Iraq the trial demonstrates precisely the reverse.

The war has resulted in at least half a million deaths and threatens to become considerably bloodier before it is over. From the beginning the Bush administration has made a series of politically motivated blunders that have made the situation far worse starting with the decision to allow the civilian population to loot the ministries and museums in the immediate aftermath of the invasion but in particular the decision to disband the Iraqi army and liquidate the Ba'ath party.

The only consideration at this point should be how best to shut down the civil war. Bush has from the beginning put his self interest and obvious desire for petty revenge before the interests of the Iraqi people.

Executing Saddam is just another Bush blunder, we should not be killing Saddam, we might need him.

The editorials are actually much worse than Matthew suggests.

Shorter WaPo: Who cares whether or not Saddam got a fair trial. It's Saddam!
But naturally, its dishonest conclusion is Exactly what would a perfect trial be capable of discovering? As if the issue is whether or not the trial was perfect, as opposed to above some minimum standard of fair. Political interference, murdered defense attorneys, replacing judges midstream? So what, says the Post.

Peretz is even worse. His opinion piece is basically ad hominem. The Church has a long history of opposition to the death penalty, and there is nothing surprising and novel in applying that stand to Saddam. A predictable counter-argument might be that Saddam is a crystal clear example of when it makes sense to apply the death penalty, but nothing that reasonable shows up in Peretz' piece.

Instead, its:

1. The particular Vatican offical who made the statement should be disregarded because:
a. he's an Iraq war critic.
b. he's a certified anti-American who has absorbed the spirit of the UN (shudder).

2. The Vatican made a deal with Saddam to go soft on Christians in Iraq in exchange for the Church going easy on Saddam's horrors. So naturally, they are just honoring that bargain.

3. The Church basically has no history of caring about the sanctity of human life.

Peretz is basically the anti-Catholic version of an anti-semite.

Principles get in the way of indulging one's emotions, which is a much more reliable way to consistently reach an audience that has no time or inclination to actually think about important issues, but plenty of time to register their feelings about them (along with their feelings about reality shows, sports teams, etc.).

Well put.

Even the Pope opposes executing Saddam.

That doesn't actually need the modifier "Even". The Evangelium Vitae of John Paul II summarizes a pretty restrictive stance on use of the death penalty. That's why all those US bishops keep calling for denying communion to Catholic politicians who support it.

[...]a trial before an Iraqi tribunal under principles of Iraqi law. We chose the latter[...]

Um, no, we chose a kangaroo court that didn't follow any principles, unless you use "Iraqi law" to mean "how Saddam himself would have done it." If it hadn't been a mockery of virtually any jurisprudence one could name, I don't think there would have been quite as much ruckus about the process. Though the argument that US troops seizing a foreign leader during a war means that the rules of war apply, and that he thus was our responsibility, would normally be pretty strong. In those crazy days when treaties, the US code, etc, bound anything that the Executive did.

Peretz has no history of caring about the sanctity of human life, at least those lives not in his immediate circle.

I was referring to dmbeaster's breakdown of Peretz's nonsense...

3. The Church basically has no history of caring about the sanctity of human life.

...and exaggerating a little bit of course. But caring for the sanctity of human life should entail not advocating destructive and stupid exercises in military aggression too.

Sounds to me like many governors in the US are guilty of murder under the WaPo's logic:

Still, there is something unreal about the cries of foul from human rights groups demanding perfect procedural justice from a country struggling with civil war, daily bombings and death-squad killings. The reality is that by the trial's end, there was no significant factual dispute between prosecution and defense: Saddam Hussein acknowledged on national television that he had signed the death warrants after only the most cursory look at the evidence against his victims. That, he testified proudly, "is the right of the head of state." Exactly what would a perfect trial be capable of discovering?
(Source: Washington Post A Death Sentence Affirmed [emphasis added])

This sentence seems to be more about avoiding the embarassment of having Don Rumsfeld called to testify about the infamous handshake at the "Saddam gassed the Kurds and got lots of US Funding anyway" trial. Inflicting the death penalty on people that you really think deserve it without adequate legal proces to ensure fairness - if the WaPo feels this is a crime meriting the death penalty, shouldn't they themselves now turn themselves in for committing the very same crime?

"Harmless error" is a concept generally used when the flaws were minor and the jury can be expected to have reached the same verdict anyway. However, Saddam's trial had one judge replaced for being "sympathetic to the accused" and replaced with a pro-prosecution judge. That error isn't harmless - there should have been a retrial.

My tinfoil hat is buzzing to tell me that W's big "surge" speech will be timed for shortly after Saddam's date with the gallows, just as the announcement of Saddam's conviction came out just before the US elections. Saddam's trial and death therefore appear to be linked to Karl Rove's PR campaigns and to avoid exposing how the US forgave Saddam for gassing the Kurds back before Kuwait. This, too, is not "harmless error" - it is more in the nature of one drug kingpin ordering the contract killing of another competing criminal gang's leader after the kingpin learns that the other leader might reveal embarassing facts during his trial. Kind of hard to call it "justice" when political convenience is the central factor in the decision to order the death, and the guilt of the proposed "dead man walking" is just a coincidence.

Yeah, but what would the Pope think if Saddam raped and murdered his wife?

I'm opposed to the death penalty but I shed no tears for Saddam Hussein. If the Iraqis want to execute him, knowing how it will further inflame the situation in Iraq, that's ultimately their call. (Too bad American troops will still be there to bear part of the risk, however.) And I just can't get too worked up over the procedures used in this trial. At some point these things look like a joke. I mean, this guy was the total ruler of a state based on violence and murder. Really, how much of a trial do you need to show that? In what universe do you have a completely fair trial that shows, surprise!, Saddam is innocent? Let's shed no tears over abuses of procedure for poor Saddam and save them for cases where defendants can really benefit from their application. Like those with sleeping public defenders in Texas.

And lastly, what was Saddam tried and being executed for? For the murders in 1982 of 148 Shi'ites in Dujayl. That's it? That's like trying and executing Hitler after WWII for killing a few prisoners in the faked attack on the German border he used to justify the invasion of Poland. Bad stuff to be sure, but come on. Focusing on the process used in the trial like that is surely mistaking the twigs for the forest. Talk about missing the big picture.

It's too late to use exposure of Saddam's crime as a restorative part of a Truth and Reconciliation effort in Iraq, but won't killing him now without at least some kind of show trials revealing all the crimes he committed risk burying this black history for future Iraqis? In other words, the mistake was not to have a 'fair' trial but not to have a true 'show' trial.

Doug ... if that isnt snark or willful ignorance please seek medical assistance

I always thought that the point of a legal justice system was that we cared about how we as a society behaved and how we were to be perceived, not to simply obsess about what the presumed or convicted criminal "deserved."

Perhaps these guys should simply begin advocating that in the United States, the civility or beastliness of our trials and punishments should be determined by the civility or beastliness of the charges at hand.

So, if someone is arrested for shoplifting a dictionary, then during the trial all those on the prosecutor's side will be allowed to steal at will from any of the alleged perpetrators.

And if someone is arrested and accused of being a serial killer, then during the trial all those on the prosecutor's side will be allowed to brutally kill and dismember anyone they choose.

There, there you have it: a society whose laws and procedures will be based simply on the basest and lowest behaviors among us.

Brilliant. Beautiful. Beastly.

Posted by: santamonicamr

"And I just can't get too worked up over the procedures used in this trial. At some point these things look like a joke. I mean, this guy was the total ruler of a state based on violence and murder."

I'll assume your "state" or country or sovereign nation is much more civilized and therefore beyond reproach when mention of violence and murder are bandied about regarding you and your fellows and their attitudes and deeds. I'd like to tell you. Saddam Hussein (in fact a very young Saddam Hussein) began his climb to strongman in the "oldest recorded and acknowledged civilization known to history" as an american intelligence asset, housed and trained at western intelligence facilities in Saudi Arabia. His weapons were furnished by western (american) State Department resources in the form of agriculture exchange as part of our country's (at the time) diplomacy for peace in the middle east.

I'm hoping no one ever lifts the layers of ashphalt over the holes we've allowed to form in our "roads toward peace, democracy, and progress of human prosperity and good will". Those comforting warm layers of non-involvement and non-accountablity that proceeded with only minor hesitation while we thought we might question ourselves and out motives while navel gazing into the refridgerator of our self indulgence and wondering oh what can it be that we wanted ... for a moment, for an hour, for our fantasy flight past the canal gates of remembrance of manifest destiny and now threatens to turn on itself and consume as if it knew where this was going.
YOUR country is much more civilized in it's controlled murder and shouldnt be critisized when it brings these "new ideas" to the old way of killing.

As for Saddam's procedural rights, that's a ridiculous sell. Iraq is a new country here. His crimes were committed under another set of laws: him. He got to face & question his accusers, call witnesses in his own behalf, and present evidence. They weighed no ducks to see if he was a witch. They examined no pigeon innards. It wasn't perfect, but a trial in which the defendant's enemies and friends are pot-shotting the trial's officials is always going to be dicey.

Perhaps you should read the allegations and become informed on the topic before commenting.

As examples, consider that judges were removed and replaced in mid-trial apparently because the ruling party didn't like the way they were conducting the trial. Consider that the defense was blocked from presenting evidence that might have implicated the political leaders of the U.S. in the events that Saddam was charged with. Consider that the announcement of the verdict and sentence was delayed for no obvious reason until 2 days before the U.S. mid-term elections.

This is the sad part -- an honest trial, based on the principles of Nuremburg, would have convicted this man *and* perhaps reestablished the notion that the U.S. actually cares about justice. Instead, this trial has only served to reinforce the notion that the U.S. and Iraqi leadership are thoroughly corrupt and to lend support to Saddam's backer's belief that he was railroaded.

(text corrects*) our* and carnal* (maybe more if I read it one more time)

I'm opposed to Saddam's execution just like I'm opposed to Bush's execution, even though they're both responsible for a lot of dead Iraqis.

The show trial for Saddam is so much lipstick on a pig. It is a pathetic attempt to rationalize what victors have often done in wars- execute the leaders of the opposition. This fails in so many ways, most of all because it is likely to unleash a backlash that gets a lot more people killed.

Josh Marshall's take over at TPM seems dead on to me.

e.g.: This whole endeavor, from the very start, has been about taking tawdry, cheap acts and dressing them up in a papier-mache grandeur -- phony victory celebrations, ersatz democratization, reconstruction headed up by toadies, con artists and grifters. And this is no different. Hanging Saddam is easy. It's a job, for once, that these folks can actually see through to completion. So this execution, ironically and pathetically, becomes a stand-in for the failures, incompetence and general betrayal of country on every other front that President Bush has brought us.

When Pinochet was arrested in London and the law lords initially okayed his extradition to Spain, subsequent to this it was disclosed that one of the judges, Lord Hoffman had close ties to Amnesty International and that AI had presented materials in support of the extradition. Accordingly, the initial decision was overturned and an appeal was heard.

I don't think anyone has more contempt for Pinochet than I do, but this was the right thing to do. The taint of possible bias was not worth it.

Josh Marshall's take over at TPM seems dead on to me.

And how. His take deserves to be read in its entirety--it's a thing of beauty.

I used to read TPM for a more moderate/establishment take on things, but Josh has become more... oh, let's say "shrill" after a few more years of watching this train wreck. He's really eviscerating them these days.

Without a doubt the Iraqi criminal justice structure leaves a lot to be desired. But what was the alternative? What right would the international community have had to take from Iraq the power to try one of its own?

Here's the thing: Hitler's victim's were primarily non-German. The Nazis killed millions of Russians, Jews, Poles, European civilians of numerous nations, as well as thousands of soldiers from places like Scotland and Texas. There really wasn't anything improper or unseemly about the victors acting as judges after the war.

The situation doesn't apply in Iraq. I don't see any alternative to allowing the imperfect Iraqi judiciary to mete out justice in this situation.

They aren't principles so much as guidelines.

The biggest problem with some quickie execution for the Dijala massacare is that it will be for "only" about 140 people.

This guy has killed hundreds of thousands. He should be prosecuted for Anfal. And as far as non-Iraqis, he should be prosecuted for his war crimes in the Iran-Iraq war and against the Kuwatis in Gulf War I. If we are worried about the flaws in the Iraqi justice system, the easiest thing to do would be to give him to the Kuwatis. There would be plenty of testimony about the murdering and looting, of non-Iraqi Sunni arabs, against Saddam.

The worst thing about executing him now is that he has not been called to account for all his crimes, only a single crime. It shows they just want to force through an execution judgment as fast as possible, and since the Dijali massacare trial was already up and running, they shoe-horned him into it. Even if "we all know he is guilty," it is clear the process was manipulated to get the desired result: a stamp of legitimacy on his execution. I think Iraq and the world would benefit from a full accounting of his crimes, not just for Dijali. Then go ahead and execute. But build many cases for his many crimes. So even if some are flawed, some would have introduced enough overwhelming evidence that no one could really dispute guilt.

Yeah, but what would the Pope think if Saddam raped and murdered his wife?

Doug ... if that isnt snark or willful ignorance please seek medical assistance.

I believe Doug was making a reference to the question Michael Dukakis was asked in a presidential debate:

"Governor, if Kitty Dukakis [his wife] were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?"

Seems like Matt spends a lot of time these days countering Martin Peretz...

Now, Peretz is a pompous illogical blowhard who has seriously degraded the quality of TNR, which used to be one of my favorite magazines. So I'm no fan. But how much time can one spend countering the pseudo-logic of pompous illogical blowhards before it becomes an exercise in futility? It's like spending time carefully countering the arguments of Bill O'Reilly...

Plenty of people misunderstand what they don't have. For instance, I never understood why Eric Benet let Halle Berry go.

The state has a monopoly of violence, so it has inherent right to kill anyone the law allows it do (assuming due process is followed). if we don't protest the government killing innocent civilians during a military action, its hard to see to get worked up about killing a murderer, especially murderous tyrant. Morally, the state (whether the US or Iraq) has the right to execute Saddam.

However, pragmatically, victor's justice is never a good idea because it hurts us politically. Killing Saddam only makes him a martyr. As an absolute policy, we should never execute our political enemies, even the ones who behavior would warrant the death penalty were they ordinary criminals. Even at Nuremberg, it would have been better to sentence the Nazis to a life sentence at Spandau (or Leavenworth or the gulag of your choice).

Saddam's execution is even more problematic, executing the Nazis didn't make much difference because the Germans had formaly surrender and were completely subdued militarily during the Nuremberg Trials.

Seeing as Iraq never actually surrendered (no one from Iraq signed a peace treaty or even a truce, Saddam's government just sort of skipped town), Saddam, captured in a hole carrying a pistol, looks to all the world like a prisoner of war. If you're going to execute POWs, why not go full-on and have a Japanese officer behead him with a sword?

Look, this whole thing is riduculous. In what countries have they had justice for dictators DURING a civil war? Is this even possible? If no one believes it was not a fair trial, then not only is it politically harmful, but morally wrong.

The Post editorial’s clincher: “Saddam Hussein acknowledged on national television that he had signed the death warrants after only the most cursory look at the evidence against his victims.”

Does anybody remember the way George W Bush handled death penalty cases in Texas? Is cursoriness now the criterion for executing a chief executive?

Obviously not. Bush isn’t Hussein. But the Post actually picks out one way they are alike. Were they always this sloppy?

The neo-conservative right wing, and around 10-30% of the population at large, got tired of being moral, so nearly as I can tell. It takes a certain amount of effort to be an adult, with a responsibility to the facts and to principles, and given the opportunity thanks to 9/11, they cast all that aside. No matter how intelligent they may be, they're living like animals, and not very sophisticated ones at that - they have, to swipe a line from Alan Moore, "no god but appetite, no creed save ballistics". I regard posts like this one from Matthew as holding a lamp up by the door back to humanity for those who decide they'd like to rejoin the race; it's about all we can do.

KH -- You're right, it's amazing WP would condemn Saddam for the very thing Bush did as governor. Sidney Zion, of all people, coined this dead-on description back in 1999: "Bush was signing death warrants like they were Visa charges." (Zion is obsessed by hatred for Israel's critics but also by hatred for prosecutors and executioners. Go figure.)

Bruce Baugh -- You're right too. The hawks, and especially the neocons, have regressed into a childlike state where they favor righteous smashing because smashing feels good. Also, thanks for quoting Alan Moore. The fact that he doesn't need an ID shows how his name has spread.

Do you understand that where principles conflict, one has to make judgments? What constitutes justice is not a bright line question that everyone agrees on.

It makes as little sense to say that capital punishment is always wrong as it does to say that all murderers deserve it.

Personally, I find the argument that executing people puts the state in the position of a murderer to be offensive and specious. It's a part of every government's job to enforce laws and deliver justice, but there are many areas where our system no longer serves justice, especially from the point of view of the victims.

What right would the international community have had to take from Iraq the power to try one of its own?

One, because certain crimes - war crimes, crimes against humanity - transcend nationality. They are crimes against the very notion of humanity, the very notion of normative rule and society, and thus all of humanity has a stake in prosecuting them.

Two, Saddam's crimes were such that no one in Iraq could be impartial. Not even the judges. It follows that the procedures and judicial rules couldn't be, and weren't impartial.

Three, a trial where judges, the attorneys, the witnesses -and their families! - were replaced, threatened, and murdered isn't, and can't be, "legitimate" by any meaning of the term.

Because of all that, Saddam should have been tried at The Hague, or by a specially-constituted international tribunal.

This, of course, is a corollary to the annual whine about the 'United States' section of AI's annual report, because the punditocracy doesn't believe the US should be judged by the same standards that AI applies to other countries, because, y'know, those other countries aren't good like the US -- and what's more, they're foreign.

I understand the principle of legitimising the Iraqi government by putting the old regime on trial, in the person of Saddam. Trouble is, this isn't even the trial of Louis XVI, let alone that of Charles I.

But as Kyle has noted, there's nothing George Bush likes more than state-sanctioned murder.

See a sarcastic visual of George Bush playing a round of “Hangman”…here:

www.thoughttheater.com

Saddam should have been tried at The Hague, or by a specially-constituted international tribunal

There is no court in The Hague with the right mandate, unfortunately. And because of the circumstances of his overthrow, it is difficult to see how an ad hoc international tribunal could have been brought into being.

It's quite interesting to see Yglesias and others write about principles.... where are your principles with regard to the human rights of the Iraqi people? What irks me most about the anti-war crowd is the claim that their position was a principled one. They claim that the war was illegal, but international law is not necessarily connected to principle: in fact the international law that keeps nations from intervening on human rights grounds is the very mechanism that allows tyrants to violate basic principles of human rights. Those who wanted to keep Saddam in power were going along with a corrupt system which allowed him to violate human rights. Those who want to abandon Iraq now are going against basic liberal principles which demand that we reconstruct Iraqi society. That Bush didn't do the right thing doesn't make those liberals who want to leave the Iraqis to a genocidal fate right. Liberals who want this are not principled at all: they are neo-isolationist realists who have abandoned any and all legitimacy to claim solidarity with the oppressed.

What to do if family has suffered from a medical mistake? WBR LeoP

If you read all these comments, you relize hou lost we realy are when it comes to alternitive feuls. I think there might be some conspiracy from our goverments and there is a lot of con artists in this for money. But one thing is for sure - you can not buy a car that uses water as feul. I think we must start using wind and sun energy to safe money at home and spent it on fuel untill hybrid cars become the norm

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