The Good Shepherd
Spencer was a fan. Me, not so much. The film's pretty successful on the level of ideas, I'll grant you, but Eric Roth tends to pace his screenplays at a leisurely pace. That can be okay. But the film's also suffused with a persistent thematic gloominess. That, too, can be okay. But then you add in Matt Damon in the lead role. His signature affect-less performances can be extremely effective in the right hands (Bourne Identity, The Departed) but in combination with the gloominess, the slow pace, and the long length of the film, the results are just deadly dull.
The portrayal of vintage WASP mores -- alcoholism, loveless marriages, otherwise-serious men singing and dancing, secret societies, beloved gay teachers -- however, is pretty cool. On the other hand, at this point in time there's really nothing more cliché and, frankly, a little churlish than Jews and white Catholics teaming up to offer unflattering portrayals of the old regime elite we've displaced.
Comments
I enjoyed it, though I would have to agree that the end result was a not-great film. When and where can we have a conversation about the plot and the many opaque themes and motifs?
You guys ought to gone to see Children of Men, which is great -- although it's not playing within walking distance of hand-pulled noodles and dumplings.
This WASP fixation starts with Portnoy and goes through "Seinfeld" and "Will and Grace". It is cliched, so your last sentence is a welcome step towards burying this anachronistic stereotype. And I'm not a WASP.
I don't get the fascination with the supposed alcoholism, though (as if Catholics didn't drink?). Is that from Cheever, or Cheever by way of George Costanza's in-laws? Isn't drinking the norm? I find these teetotalers' perspective on "vintage WASP mores" odder than the supposed mores themselves.
the old regime elite we've displaced
Given that we are currently ruled by an unqualified idiot who got the job entirely because of his elite WASPy CIA heritage, I'm not declaring victory yet.
(Also, what seemed like a glaring inaccuracy on the vintage WASP mores: What is Laura doing in the Yale library? Yale didn't go coed until 1969, and I don't think it had a women's college like Radcliffe either; not that Radcliffe students were allowed into the men's library.)
Also, where was alcoholism a factor in TGS?
Matt Weiner -- there's a much bigger inconsistency than that later on in the flick.
Well, there's a few implausibilities, but this was nice and non-spoilerly and had to do with the WASP elite. (What did you have in mind? I can be e-mailed at matt@mydomainname.net.)
While I'm on the line, Roth appears to have written Forrest Gump, for which nothing can atone.
Cheever, Roth: feh--paging John Updike, not to mention the uber opus in the genre: Evan S. Connell's Mrs. Bridge.
Great thread here nonetheless.
Mr. Yglesias, I note that while the movie apparently mostly tortured you more than it entertained you, it also clearly inspired you to find the right words to be able to say some profound stuff very succinctly. :-)
As to the theme of former WASP ruling class growing tiresome, I dunno as the BBC et. al. hasn't stopped finding the Brit ruling class story a ratings winner yet.
yeah, the jews and the catholics, they're the ones behind it.
except, as earlier commenters have pointed out, updike and cheever and all of the other chroniclers of upper-middle wasp malaise who are themselves upper-middle wasp.
i mean, it's back to fitzgerald chronicling the gatsbys, isn't it? unless you're going to count him as catholic?
look, artappraiser is on to it--the brits like to tell of the downfall of the brits, the wasps like to tell of the downfall of the wasps. it's more a matter of self-absorption than of outsiders picking on them.
but then, i would say that....
I saw it yesterday and enjoyed it. Questions: was Laura in on their being photographed, i.e. was she working for the other side? What was the significance of his returning the cross jewelry to her other than he had failed to return it earlier? I read where the MD character was a composite of James Angleton and, I believe, a guy named Berg who were famous or infamous CIA counter intelligence senior operatives. Wasn't Angleton a suicide? Based on what I had read about the basis for the character, I thought MD would kill himself as his father had and as Angleton had as a way out (no pun intended of the mess) so the Soviets couldn't use him in the future. Was he leaving the agency at the end or just moving to the new headquaters at Langley? Finally, the photographs of the Soviet agent that CIA had when the first agent defected looked nothing like the guy who defected, but resembled the second defector. Given that, I thought that MD would realize that the second guy was telling the truth and that he would unmask the first guy. The film lost some credibility with me when this didn't happen, although, again, it was probably based on the actual events (I seem to have read something about an agent jumping through a window on LSD)of the CIA blowing it. It wouldn't be the first time.
**SPOILER**
My big question is this: what did the error of the two defectors have to do with the failure of the Bay of Pigs (if anything)? Other questions:
1. Was the implication of Allen's FBI file that he was simply corrupt, or that he was also a mole? My understanding was that Matt Damon's character suspected Phillip Allen of being responsible for undermining the Bay of Pigs, when in fact it was his own son who turned out the be the leak. Is this an accurate read?
2. How does it make sense that the son overheard crucial details of the Bay of Pigs, joined the CIA, was trained and deployed to Kinshasa, and leaked the details to his fiancee, all before the invasion actually took place?
* * SPOILER * *
Since Jim veers in this direction anyway....
If you recall, Damon's character reunites with Laura, the deaf girl, and they have sex. Of course (I guess), since he's such a prominent spook, he's being watched all the time. So somebody gets photos of the tryst -- and gives them to Damon's wife.
Makes absolutely zero sense. Anybody playing in the same leagues as Damon is supposed to be knows that when you've got good blackmail material, you use it for blackmail, manipulation. It's hard to blackmail anybody when you've already blown the dirty little secret.
I don't know why they included that bit, since the wife's outrage scene added pretty much nothing to the flick. Actually, the whole "driven CIA guys make lousy husbands and fathers" theme weakened the film quite a bit. Or maybe it was just that Angeline Jolie's character was nearly totally unbelievable from start to finish.
Another peeve: Later in the film, Damon seemed to do an awful lot of field-level gumshoe work for a guy who was plainly in the upper echelons of the agency. Marshall's points are good, too. Still, I enjoyed the movie, and have already recommended it to friends.
sglover,
My understanding (you might call it rationalization) of the infidelity/confrontation chain of events was that it was Clover who hired a PI and then got the pictures delivered. That would at least explain why she just took the pictures and confronted him. But maybe you're right: the pictures had more to do with his professional life that I thought initially.
except, as earlier commenters have pointed out, updike and cheever and all of the other chroniclers of upper-middle wasp malaise who are themselves upper-middle wasp.
That's what I mean, though. It's fine -- great, even -- for Updike, Cheever, and other veterans of the scene to make this their subject. But for Roth, DeNiro, etc. to be harping away on the theme seems a little churlish to me.
SPOILERS CONTINUE
That's a good point, sglover. Now, my guess is that Damon's character wouldn't have responded to a blackmail attempt -- he'd be torn when faced with the choice to betraying the agency to protect his son, he would never in a million years think about doing so to protect his wife. And destabilizing his family turned out to be a way to get to him. But there would be no way to anticipate that.
Marshall, the son was in the CIA already when he overheard the details, right?
I think the family theme was essential to the film, not that I necessarily think that was a good thing. (Smiley's People the novel did it better.) Also, I think much of the gumshoeing is Damon at least somewhat freelancing because he realizes that his son probably was the leak.
Matt,
The son had said he was interested in joining the CIA but my understanding was that he was not, as yet, a member of it when he overheard the conversation. In any case, upon arrival in Africa Damon (and the audience) are surprised to see the naval medallion on the bedside table. But wouldn't Damon have thought "Oh, Leopoldville? Isn't that where my son is? Oh shit!" Or did he really not know where his son was after joining the agency? I just don't get how there would have been enough operational details known to have whatever the son overheard be sufficient to destroy the operation that far in advance.
Yeah, that seems to make sense. (Unless Damon and no one else knew where his son was -- I sort of think he knows but doesn't want to tell himself all along.)
I also sort of wondered if we were supposed to take it that it didn't really matter if the Russians found out where the invasion was; it was a dumb plan anyway (and the support Damon talks about at the beginning was not forthcoming). But that seems like something I brought to the movie rather than something that was there.
the old regime elite we've displaced
Displaced? Maybe in NYC, but 2004 saw two bonesmen squaring off for the presidency.
That portrait of the 'elites' was my favorite part of the movie as well.
Matt,
I think your specific criticism (ie, the futility of the Bay of Pigs regardless) is not voiced within the movie as such. However, the motif of the ships in bottles definitely points to the overall irrelevance of all the intelligence doings during the Cold War. The CIA could simply not have existed throughout the Cold War and the end result would have been exactly the same, but with far less death and destruction en route. (The one possible exception is the photos of Cuban missiles presented to the UN during the Cuban Missile Crisis. But I don't think it was the CIA who was responsible for taking them, was it?)
As an RC, I have to say that I'm pleased to learn that not only am I Time's Man of the Year, but I'm also part of the new ruling elite.
Wangadang-doodle. This has been a good year.
While the CIA was WASP-dominated, the FBI was heavily Catholic and Mormon.
I agree with all the comments above that the Jolie-Damon subplot was a distraction from what I guess was supposed to be the larger theme of the movie: the birth of the CIA. Frankly, I don't understand the logic behind its inclusion. And its not as if they were short on time.
"seems a little churlish to me"
thanks for the response, I get it now.
still--do we want a protocol saying that only zoroastrians can make movies about zoroastrians?
Personally, I think anybody should be able to talk about anybody.
For example, Gregg Easterbrook should be able to note that a lot of movie executives are Jewish without being fired from ESPN by Michael Eisner and having all his archives deleted.
What's funny is that what tripped up Easterbrook was a touchy subject going waaaaay back. Even Evelyn Waugh, of all people, was afraid to mention the ethnicity of movie studio bosses back in 1948's "The Loved One," in which the executives are described as Scandinavian and Italian. Or note how in 1952's "Singin' in the Rain," they hilariously cast the most gentile-looking actor imaginable, Milard Mitchell, as R.F. Simpson, the supposed mogul of the studio where Gene Kelly acts. In the movie, Mitchell looked like an admiral whose battleship somehow washed up on Gower.
Mitchell is the towering fellow in the middle in this picture:
http://www.gonemovies.com/www/MyWebFilms/Drama/SingingDexterRFDon.jpg
With regards to the photographing of Wilson's tryst, I don't think the intention was to get a hold into Wilson. His wife was given the photos during one of the secret society retreats. The implication I got was that Hayes or Allen wanted Wilson to knock off the affair for national security reasons.
With regards to the photographing of Wilson's tryst, I don't think the intention was to get a hold into Wilson. His wife was given the photos during one of the secret society retreats. The implication I got was that Hayes or Allen wanted Wilson to knock off the affair for national security reasons.
I thought that might be an explanation, too. Still, I don't see why they wouldn't confront Damon's character with the evidence, since his wife might react unpredictably, and thus (somehow) become the old "threat to national security" herself. Marshall's PI theory is one that hadn't occurred to me, but I think it's undone by the fact that she got the photos while at the uber-secret Skull & Bones-CIA Pancake Breakfast and Musical Comedy Gala -- presumably, that'd be an invitation-only event. Anyway, the whole episode is a real weak point in the flick.
I remember when I was attending Brandeis back in the '60's, my history professor, Morton Keller, said that it was the State Department that was traditionally anti semetic both in its policies (i.e.refusal to let many Jews emigrate from Europe in the '30's and refused to let the ship carrying Jews dock and unload the passengers in the US)and in its hiring of Jews, in contrast to the CIA which, particularly after the war, was much more open to hiring Jews. Of course, Kissinger ran State in the '70's and later came Powell and the lovely Condi.
SPOILER WARNING- don't read any further if you don't want details given up.
I think I need to see this movie again to get the details right- maybe my timing is confused, but without doing that, can anyone prove/disprove some ideas or clarify some issues for me?
1) The pic of the son supposedly with a russian spy, was just a play by Ulysses to get info out of Wilson. The mole was really the double agent russian and/or Allen.
2) I don't know who killed the fiance, because I can't understand how it benefitted anyone.
3) The british cohort in london was a traitor the whole time, but what about Hayes at the FBI (the fellow skull and bones guy that helped kill the professor)?
4) What made Wilson go back to the russian double spy's office to search his books?
5) I realize the dollar at the start of the movie was from the henchman of Ulysses, but I don't remember what it led wilson to. Anyone know how it helped wilson?
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