What's the Deal With . . .

I've read these documents had something to do with pre-9/11 intelligence on issues relating to terrorism. I can't stomach right wing radio but it's a sure bet Rush/Laura/Sean are touting this all as proof 9/11 was Clinton's fault. Worse yet it's indicative Clinton knew it was coming and did nothing about it. Berger was trying to keep the world from finding out for sure what we all suspected all along. See?

Ya think?

> Hid them under a trash collector!

Well, actually, hid them under a construction trailer. I'm not sure how you'd hide something under a trash collector without tipping him off.

He deserves a harsh punishment.

What an idiot.

The $100 million question(s) that never really get answered by these Sandy Berger news reports:

1. Was he working with original documents or copies?
2. Did the Archives keep copies of all of the documents (the answer to that appears to be yes, given that no documents are missing.)
3. Should Berger have known the answer to questions (1) and (2). Seems that some good reporting could at least answer these questions based on Archives policies.
4. Finally, assuming that (copies of) the documents were safe in the archive (and Berger knew it), why would he destroy any of them?

Contrary to the Wingers: If Berger was not trying to destroy anything, it seems most likely that there was something in those docs that he wanted to leak. Presumably something beneficial to himself or to the Clinton administration. I'd love to know what it was.

I'm with you. WTF?

ok - but can we now rehash years old GOP scandals in which the perp has paid the fine and done his time?

I'm trying to figure out exactly why this is "news" now...

It is a long way from election day, but if Dems are smart, they'll take the opportunity to loudly and vehemently toss Berger under the proverbial bus. Aside from the political considerations, "it's the right thing to do", as a certain well-known Dem would say.

I tend to assume he wasn't trying to destroy original documents, but instead wanted to take them home to study so he'd have the best answers possible for the 9/11 commission.

As to the WTF factor, there was a CIA (?) chief in the 90's who got canned for copying classified data onto his personal laptop. When you get high enough in the food chain, it's easy to start assuming those type of rules don't apply to you anymore.

But the Berger story really does have a novelistic level of detail. Hiding them under a dumpster isn't half as good as stuffing them into his underwear, no?

When Berger got off with a light sentence I assumed the reason was that there was no 'there' there. This report certainly makes me wonder.

Even absent this report, I don't think there was any danger of the Democrats bringing Sandy Berger back, unlike the GOP which seems to shamelessly recycle every single Iran-Contra malfeasor.

Shouldn't a former NSA have access to cool spy gizmos like cufflink cameras? Hiding them under a dumpster is amateur stuff.

I also thought he probably wanted to leak them (or did leak them) but was shut down by the investigation.

BLAME CANADA!!

I haven't ever lived in DC, but the couple of times I visited over the last few years the new Canadian embassy was taking shape right near the archives, no? For that long period the place was a construction site. Could it be that BERGER WAS PASSING DOCUMENTS TO CANADA??

M.G.: When this story first came up it was reported that all the documents Berger "borrowed" were 1) copies, and 2) later examined by the 9/11 Commission. Per the Commission, there was apparently nothing "big" in the documents, where "big" means something that made the Clinton Administration look either very bad or very good. If neither of these scenarios explain Berger's actions, I would put the smart money on too much alcohol.

ep -

"Per the Commission, there was apparently nothing "big" in the documents, where "big" means something that made the Clinton Administration look either very bad or very good."

Ah, but was there something in the documents that made Sandy Berger look very good or very bad? Something that he might want to leak or have a carefully constructed defense for? When I heard they were copies and not originals way back when, that's what I figured it was all about - either Sandy wanted to cover his ass or toot his horn (probably the former) and went about it in a very stupid manner.

A couple of years ago, Rice said there were no documents missing. Now there are again? WTF is going on?

The only questions that matter relate to the content of the documents. The right has always spun this that he was trying to hide something and frankly, that was my initial reaction. The thought that he was going to try to leak something that was positive for Clinton has never entered the public discourse on the subject.
My question for those of you that have paid closer attention is how would you characterize the contents of the documents?

It's hard to think of a benign explanation for why someone with above average intelligence would steal five copies of the same document. Somewhere here there has to be a good story.

If I remember correctly the reports that Sandy was smuggling out had to do with Clinton's handling of the Millennium terrorist plot. Y'know how well they handled that. Of course what Sandy did was completely idiotic (not quite Fawn Hall idiotic, but stupid nonetheless) and he paid a hefty fine for it but are we now going to question that he was smuggling out information that proved that Clinton could have done more to stop terrorism.

Strikes me as amusing/strange/concerning that part of the punishment for serious abusing your access to classified documents is that you are then not allowed to handle them for all of three years. I would imagine if one smuggled classified docs and then FedExed them to:

Osama
Some Cave
Tribal Areas, Pakistan

You might have to go four years before they would give you access again.

A commenter writes: "I tend to assume he wasn't trying to destroy original documents, but instead wanted to take them home to study so he'd have the best answers possible for the 9/11 commission."

Why strain to excuse this guy, about whom few of us know anything? I'm sure he was quite aware one doesn't just get to "take ... home to study" classified documents. (You make him sound like a kid who decided to take his schoolbook home, when it's technically supposed to stay in his locker.)

Doesn't Occam's razon suggest writing this guy off as a loose cannon of some sort?

"The thought that he was going to try to leak something that was positive for Clinton has never entered the public discourse on the subject."

At the time (and probably still), the Bush administration was engaged in selective, self-serving declassification. I always thought Berger was trying to leak more complete information.

I know whenever I want to study something I make sure to get 4 or 5 copies of it. You retain information much better when you have as many copies as possible.

It is a long way from election day, but if Dems are smart, they'll take the opportunity to loudly and vehemently toss Berger under the proverbial bus. Aside from the political considerations, "it's the right thing to do", as a certain well-known Dem would say.

Wilford Brimley?

It's a shame he didn't restrain himself to more provincial, socially acceptable misdemeanors, like war crimes, conspiracy, and fraud, otherwise he'd be perfectly suited for high-level executive branch appointments under the current administration.

All the accoutns I have heard were they were copies not originals. So again assuming Occam's razor, he wasn't trying to hide something since destroying copies wouldn't accompliosh anything.

So my guess is he was taking stuff that made the Clinton admin look good to make sure it showed up in the 9/11 commission report, if it didn't he would leak the copies he had.

Now that makes sense. Sandy needed to steal 5 copies of the same document because he wanted to leak it to 5 different media contacts and he can't afford the rates at Kinko's. Hmm. . .

I have heard different understandings of the 'copies' issue. They were multiple copies of the same typed document with original handwritten notes was the most complete explanation I heard. But I don't vouch for its accuracy.

I think Berger made copies of the originals (which is prohibited) and tried to smuggle them out in anticipation of having to testify about the Clinton administration's handling of pre-9/11 intelligence. Basically, a stupid and risky attempt to be sure he was prepared for whatever q's came his way. Absolutely inane for him to do, but he wasn't accused of destroying the only copies of sensitive materials, to my (humble) knowledge.

Chicken Soup for Documents in Your Pants . . .

And of course, you or I stick documents down our pants or in our socks and walk out of the National Archives and we go straight to jail - probably get an orifice check as well. Sandy goes and does some community work.

I think it is a Clinton cover-up. The "copies" were different variations of the same documents - so they are trying to vaccum the files to get all versions of something important.

I would like to know what the (beep) is going on.

> One assumes this will make it difficult
> for Berger to obtain any high-level
> executive branch appointments in the future.

Hasn't seemed to be a problem for Negroponte, Gates, Poindexter, or any of that crowd ;-(

Cranky

When one goes to one of the Government intelligence services job websites to find out about background checks and such, from the questions asked, one would gather that it is very difficult to get a security clearance of any depth having ever so much as inhaled twice. Interesting that once you have your clearence, you can steal documents from a government archive and only recieve a 3 year slap on the wrist.

Isn't it safe to assume that the Bush admin. would exploit whatever Berger did to its fullest potential as scandal fodder? If yes, then there must be nothing there.

Unless you get really tin-foil hatted about it and start to think that there's also something bad for the Bushies in the facts of what happened.

What MG said. Unless they can show that he destroyed originals -- and they weren't able to do so the last time they tried making this into a Big Scandal -- this is a non-story. Besides, these docs should never have been classified in the first place -- and wouldn't have been if Gore was in the White House.

This is all about punishing Sandy Berger for telling the world that he'd dropped the big-ass Al Qaeda file on Condi Rice's desk and warned her "You will be spending more time on this issue than any other" -- only to sit by helplessly as she blew him off.

Remember the New Year's Day 2000 Bombing of Los Angeles? Oh, that's right, it was stopped before it could happen. By Sandy Berger.

But Bush classified those documents, so nobody would know about Berger's role in stopping the Millenium Plot -- so Berger was forced to make copies and smuggle them out.

So yes, that's more than enough reason not to fall for a revival of GOP talking points on this. And I see that for once, the Democrats in Congress agree with me.

Phoenix Woman: heh. Yeah, right. I like the little thought experiment here. What if it had been Condi Rice that had been caught stuffing docs in her stockings?

Hmmm, got here a little late. Yes, Berger was working with copies - there's no doubting that. The National Archives do NOT hand out originals to anyone. Why would they? When you work in the Top Secret Room (or whatever they call it), they make the copies of the documents you want to see right in front of you - no one is under the illusion that they are working with originals.

Berger broke two other Archive rules though. First, he brought in his own copies of documents that he had. You're not supposed to bring any paperwork into that particular room - presumably to prevent exactly what unfolded in the Berger case. Second, you're not supposed to take notes either. Berger did that as well, and then stuffed those notes in his jacket pocket.

As far as I can tell what happened is fairly simple - Berger was preparing for his testimony in front of the 9/11 commission, and was studying his actions in the Clinton administration. We know that he was specifically reconciling the different "after action reports" which have several different drafts. He came in with a portfolio of his own papers which were incomplete sets - and checked out copies of the documents he was missing. He returned some of the copies he checked out, and walked out with others. Because no originals were missing, and because he was not under the impression he had originals, the charge that he was trying to protect the Clinton admin holds no water. Second, he made notes from the documents that were there - and that is also against Archive rules. And also undercuts the charge that he was up to something nefarious.

No originals were taken. Berger did not think he had originals. And no docs were stuffed in socks or trousers. Just a notoriously forgetful guy making a series of really stupid mistakes in a highly partisan era.

Actually, Lorelwynn, that's not accurate. Berger had access to National Security Council (NSC) numbered documents, printed copies of e-mails, and staff member office files (SMOFs). The SMOFs contain working papers of NSC staff members, including Berger, and their content is not inventoried by the Archives at the document level. The SMOFs given to him during his first two visits contained only original documents - this occurred before he was under suspicion by the National Archives personnel.

Forgetful guy making a stupid mistake? Hardly - he hid the papers under a trailer.

Take off the partisan blinders for a minute. This activity was well nigh treasonous.

The documents all pertained to to Millenium After Action Revue...The case of the terrorist stopped at the Canadian border with bomb making materials on his way to Los Angeles.
The focus of these documents is that the Clinton administration was warned of terrorist cells and terrorist actions planned for this country.
In his initial visits, Berger did take some original documents. When he became suspect, he was given copies.
You are allowed to take notes. They do not leave the premises if they are determined contain classified information...they are held there for your use on subsequent visits.

Wow, so Republicans now think it's high treason for a guy to make and look at copies of his own documents? Talk about partisan insanity!

By the way, Republicans: Sandy Berger was cleared of all charges of destroying/stealing originals.(http://phoenixwoman.blogspot.com/2006/12/sandy-berger-non-scandal-part-deux.html) If you want to go accuse somebody of high treason, may I suggest the persons in the Bush White House who outed an active undercover CIA agent, thus destroying her spy network in Iraq and other parts of the Middle East? You may have heard of the lady -- Valerie Plame Wilson.

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The documents all pertained to to Millenium After Action Revue...The case of the terrorist stopped at the Canadian border with bomb making materials on his way to Los Angeles.
The focus of these documents is that the Clinton administration was warned of terrorist cells and terrorist actions planned for this country.
In his initial visits, Berger did take some original documents. When he became suspect, he was given copies.
You are allowed to take notes. They do not leave the premises if they are determined contain classified information...they are held there for your use on subsequent visits.

Posted by: John Piette on December 25, 2006 08:14 AM
Wow, so Republicans now think it's high treason for a guy to make and look at copies of his own documents? Talk about partisan insanity!

By the way, Republicans: Sandy Berger was cleared of all charges of destroying/stealing originals.(http://phoenixwoman.blogspot.com/2006/12/sandy-berger-non-scandal-part-deux.html) If you want to go accuse somebody of high treason, may I suggest the persons in the Bush White House who outed an active undercover CIA agent, thus destroying her spy network in Iraq and other parts of the Middle East? You may have heard of the lady -- Valerie Plame Wilson.

The documents all pertained to to Millenium After Action Revue...The case of the terrorist stopped at the Canadian border with bomb making materials on his way to Los Angeles.
The focus of these documents is that the Clinton administration was warned of terrorist cells and terrorist actions planned for this country.
In his initial visits, Berger did take some original documents. When he became suspect, he was given copies.
You are allowed to take notes. They do not leave the premises if they are determined contain classified information...they are held there for your use on subsequent visits.

Posted by: John Piette on December 25, 2006 08:14 AM
Wow, so Republicans now think it's high treason for a guy to make and look at copies of his own documents? Talk about partisan insanity!

Hmmm, got here a little late. Yes, Berger was working with copies - there's no doubting that. The National Archives do NOT hand out originals to anyone. Why would they? When you work in the Top Secret Room (or whatever they call it), they make the copies of the documents you want to see right in front of you - no one is under the illusion that they are working with originals.

Berger broke two other Archive rules though. First, he brought in his own copies of documents that he had. You're not supposed to bring any paperwork into that particular room - presumably to prevent exactly what unfolded in the Berger case. Second, you're not supposed to take notes either. Berger did that as well, and then stuffed those notes in his jacket pocket.

It's a shame he didn't restrain himself to more provincial, socially acceptable misdemeanors, like war crimes, conspiracy, and fraud, otherwise he'd be perfectly suited for high-level executive branch appointments under the current administration.

Isn't it safe to assume that the Bush admin. would exploit whatever Berger did to its fullest potential as scandal fodder? If yes, then there must be nothing there.

Unless you get really tin-foil hatted about it and start to think that there's also something bad for the Bushies in the facts of what happened.

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Even absent this report, I don't think there was any danger of the Democrats bringing Sandy Berger back, unlike the GOP which seems to shamelessly recycle every single Iran-Contra

When Berger got off with a light sentence I assumed the reason was that there was no 'there' there. This report certainly makes me

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