Around and Around It Goes

Fair point and one that is often forgotten. This of courses goes back to Democrats being less concerned with what the establishment and/or Republicans think. The most conservative Democrat in the country could end up being the nominee and Limbaugh/Hannity/the Corner, etc. would have you believe they were further left then Michael Moore.

It would be nice - although not essential - if the democratic candidate could win the "who would you rather have a beer with" contest - since Republicans push that b.s. even when their candidate is a non-drinking alcoholic.

"Preferable drinking companion" is worth atleast a couple red states in the general election.

I'll concede that Gore was not some kind of specially-awful candidate. But everything after that whole "reporting for duty" thing at the Democratic convention was all downhill for Kerry; that guy was a complete dud. Hillary, too, has massive personality deficits.

But they'll have a helluva time arguing that Edwards or Obama is just an unappealing person. Indeed, the smear will have to be of the "slick willy" variety. I'm sure the GOP would prefer to work the "dud" smear this time around than the "overly appealing" smear.

I think the 'conservative' movement has to be seen as a political program combined with a social milieu-- so liberals are not only wrong, they're outcasts as well. This becomes plainer as the system breaks down.

I don't know him personally but I'm sure Bob Somerby salutes you!

p.s. In general, it would be nice if we could try and maintain a basic level of respect for people like John Kerry -- the "ready for duty" fiasco aside, the man has spent a lot of time in public service and done some really good things. Maybe that's asking too much, given the way things are. Maybe I should just beg people not to internalize rightwing talking points and leave it at that. Because if you think the right and the media are going to have a hard time finding things to dislike about Edwards and Obama, you haven't been paying attention.

Actually, at election time, Democrats found Kerry fairly personally appealing. It's only in post-election time that the spin that Kerry was personally uninspiring took incredible hold.

maybe the right wont be as successful with it this time around- especially if we average liberal citizens can influence the mainstream media pundits from joining (and even initiating) in the liberal candidate bashing.

and it is good to see that the compulsive reminders of one good blogger can help keep this issue in mind for all the resst of us. thanks to the Daily Howler.

nice of you to notice, matthew, but seriously, if you are still confusing "didn't run as strong a campaign as i would have liked to have seen" with "personally unappealing," then you're not at smart as i thought you were. it's shocking that you have "tended to accept" total crap.

I remember finding that "Slick Willy" thing refreshing; I remember gleefully saying the words while watching him tear apart GHWB in a debate.

This just occurred to you last week?

I suggest you review the history of political campaigns since World War II, and particularly since 1968. The loser is almost always denigrated for personal reasons. I am sure there are good reasons for this, not the least of which is to prevent the 'looking back' that Americans seem to hate.

"But everything after that whole "reporting for duty" thing at the Democratic convention was all downhill for Kerry; that guy was a complete dud."

I disagree. For one, Kerry won all three debates, as most people, at the time, even conservatives, acknowledged.

The "too slick" smear is the other side of the "unlikeable" coin. If a Democrat is too bookish, stiff, aloof, or earnest, he gets tagged as unlikeable (not the guy you want to have a beer with), but if he is charismatic and personable (the guy you would want to have a beer with), then he must be faking it somehow (because all Democrats are unlikeable elitists, unlike Republican candidates, who are all 'authentic' red-blooded true-blue Americans like you and me) which means he can't be trusted. Heads they win, tails we lose. Nice little paradox they've trapped us in.

Well there really are a few different things going on here. Some candidates ARE more charismatic than others for one thing. In terms of charisma, we have had a couple of duds following Clinton. Of course Bush isn't brimming with charisma either, obviously acceptance of right wing talking points is a real issue, but my point is that it's easier for the right wing smears to work with some candidates than with others. Sure, they tried the slick Willie thing with Clinton, but it didn't stop him from getting elected twice.

Which is to say that of course the repugs will try the same shit on Edwards and Obama. It's just less likely to stick with them than with Hillary. But then maybe I'm biased; while I'm not one of the Hillary haters, I do see her, among the Dems, as the candidate most likely to bomb Iran, if we can somehow avoid that for the next 2 years. Which is to say that there is even one republican (Hagel) who I might reluctantly vote for over Hillary (not that Hagel has a chance in a million of being nominated).

Of course let's not even talk about the fact that "appealing personal qualities" has come to mean "charismatic." I'm not sure that charisma should be one of the most important qualifications for a president, but it has become so.

Yeah, let's remember this as it was. Gore was a big sweaty lunk, a bore, a stiff, a serial exaggerator. Kerry was 'lurch' or (s)Kerry, a guy whom Hugh Hewitt spent weeks describing as metrosexual, from his imagined botox treatment to his purported perma-tan. This stuff gains traction. I remember some very smart Internet developers of the late-90s 'cyber' generation who couldn't be seen to support Gore because of the so-called 'invented the Internet' line.

First I saw of this in modern form was Mary Matalin and the look of grasping disgust that she feigned on CNN whenever talking about Clinton in 1992. She didn't have a script or even much to say to justify her affect (the search to concoct ammo was a later effort), but she had the delivery, since appropriated by Kate O'Beirne.

I'm afraid this kind of thing will never go away. You'd hope that public distaste for Republicans would mean that their claims would be dismissed, but if so, that's a one-cycle phenomenon.

I think the problem is more that Republican candidates aren't ridiculed enough.

Just wait til the word gets out that Hil. drank John under the table in Russia.
Fairness doctrine comes back. Treason against OSP?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article16234.htm

Actually, at election time, Democrats found Kerry fairly personally appealing

not this Democrat. i voted for Kerry because there was no choice.

Problematically for this theory, all of these candidates have actually been extremely unappealing personally. Clinton really was a scuzzy Slick Willie figure, Gore really was a cardboard cutout with a gross spray-on tan, Kerry really was an out of touch aristocrat, and Hillary really is a cloying nanny-figure.

I am sure that if you do sufficient amount of Googling, you will find that every quality in Dem candidates that the conservative pundits find to be loathsome is praised as refreshing in a Republican candidate.

Imagine a Democratic GWB candidacy. Even before he spoke his first sentence, he would have been drowned out by the characterizations from the right as a product of the effete eastern liberal establishment, and not so bright to boot.

The problem is that too many members of the media seem to be so very eager to embrace such dishones and mindless criticism of Democratic leaders as received wisdom.

Actually, doesn't the same thing happen the other way? Liberals have their owb nudge-nudge wink-wink codes for the personally distasteful traits of Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft, Frist, Santorum, McCain, and so on and so forth.

That's the sorry state of US politics, and to an outsider like me it's bewildering -- and disappointing. Guys, some of us still look up to you.

The question for insiders like yourselves is this: Which side of the schoolyard gossip gets played out in the national media? I think we all know the answer to that.

You write:

"One thing I found myself thinking about last week was how quickly lots of liberals -- myself included, really -- have tended to be willing to accept the notion that John Kerry was some kind of uniquely unappealing candidate for national office in terms of his personal qualities."

The more fundamental idea is that candidates are "appealing" in terms of "personal qualities." That kind of expectation or hope or whatever lends itself to telegenic candidates together with their telegenic (and therefore hollow) ideas.

It's no surprise that conservatives try to turn every leading Democrat into not only an ideologically objectionable figure but a personally mock-worthy one as well.

NO NO NO! Goddamnit Matt! This is so infuriating. The fact that you still, after all these years, blame "conservatives" for casting every leading Dem as personally mock-worthy shows me that you don't know your history!

It shows me that you must have completely ignored what happened to Al Gore - the fact that the MAINSTREAM MEDIA turned Gore into an object of derision! NOT the conservatives! But why, as Bob Somerby so often asks, do liberal writers like yourself, who surely understand this, simply REFUSE to ever discuss this incredible part of our recent history?

The obvious answer is that liberal writers don't want to confront the mainstream media institutions that they would like to be a part of one day. I don't want to believe that about you Matt, but WTF??

It's fucking infuriating.

By the time the Washington Consultants get done with these guys the product rendered is bland, sucked dry of all substance and reduced to an image they think will appeal to Americans who the Washington crowd considers dumb.

As long as the candidates buy into it we will complain and we should. Kerry/Gore have good qualities but more often then not they appeared ridiculous. Who the hell knows who Hillary is.

Hopefully Edwards was jerked around enough in 04 and wised up. Obama is a huge unknown.

This election is ours to lose. But so was 2000. If Kerry handled the re-count well...he might well have been our president--but he bowed to those Washington Consultants and lawyers and gave us Bush. So we're pissed off at him for this. Good for us.

Echoing Culture of Truth -- Kerry wasn't my first choice, but overall I thought he put up a damn good fight, and his loss was pretty narrow. I'm not sure what anyone could have done to reach the clueless idiots who are still polling as "undecided" right up to Election Day. Evidently most of those cretins figured out, about a year too late, that G.W. Bush isn't fit for his job.

It really wasn't the mainstream media that turned Al Gore into a joke; it was Al Gore. Blaming people other than Democrats for the problems of Democrats is weak. Note that now that Al Gore does not act like a poll-tested robot, he's treated as a wise man of enormous gravitas.

Kerry, whom I like as a legislator, WAS super-lame as a candidate. They treated him like a punching bag and he took it. Compare him to Jim Webb. When George Allen attacked his patriotism for opposing a constitutional amendment on flag-burning, Webb smashed him to a bloody pulp:

“George Felix Allen Jr. and his bush-league lapdog, Dick Wadhams, have not earned the right to challenge Jim Webb’s position on free speech . . . Jim Webb served and fought for our flag and what it stands for, while George Felix Allen Jr. chose to cut and run. . . While Jim Webb and others of George Felix Allen Jr.’s generation were fighting for our freedoms and for our symbols of freedom in Vietnam, George Felix Allen Jr. was playing cowboy at a dude ranch in Nevada.”

Gore and Kerry allowed themselves to be pushed around, and that's how they were perceived. They were patsies. Webb is a man. No one pushes him around. He doesn't defend, he doesn't protest that it's not fair, he doesn't hide. He comes out swinging.

Look at Obama. He's being attacked right now- he's a Muslim, he's a terrorist, he's a traitor. The great unwashed mass of low information voters are forming their opinions. Where is his response? He's nowhere. Unless he does something soon, he'll be dead meat before he gets started. Just another patsy of a Democrat.

I'm with Joe.

I recall that after it looked like Clinton might have a chance to get into office and do some positive things for the first (and I assure you the last) I made the mistake of subscribing to the New Republic for what I hoped might be some substantive discussion, and got nothing but crap about "Slick Willie" and adulation of "King Robert" Dole.

As for substantive discussion (and this was before Peretz was certified crazy), if Brad DeLong or Josh Marshall talk in their sleep you could get more substantive discussion by putting a microphone next to their beds.

AFAIK, every political/economic model of presidential voting (where the model puts together factors like "incumbent" & "war" & "jobless rate" & "GDP" etc etc) foretold a Bush landslide.

Kerry actually got a surprising number of votes. Just not enough.

The post hoc denigration of Kerry is the truly unappealing thing, and it's a kind of rationalisation of the feeling that only a dumbass could lose to Bush. But that's not true, is it? Of course, by buying into that, you're just proving the truth of what actually happened: a small group of well-funded smear merchants did their nasty business, and millions of Americans voted with their lizard brains against teh ghey and for more apple pie. Oh, and Osama put in his contractual appearance. See Ron Suskind's book for the CIA's judgement on that.

The Dems could have nominated Jesus Christ and you'd be saying today that he was too much of a dirty fucking hippy to win. That's how those bastards work. They get into the mouths of the media whores, and they get into your lymph nodes like a cancer.

You don't think that 2006 is the equivalent of electoral make-up sex that, in truth, isn't very good?

I am with JR.

We need more Webbs than Kerry.

Guy, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about. Somerby has documented this phenomenon obsessively for years. All the quotes, the citations from actual MSM reporting, he's got it chapter and verse.

I promise that if you spent an hour or two going through the relevant posts on DailyHowler you'd change you mind. I used to think the same thing you did, but Somerby definitely changed my mind. It's all here in black and white. Not really debatable.

Don't worry, whoever the Dems run, give 2 to 1 odds and half their money back and have a winner taking the Democratic candidate. Did you see Straight Talk on Meet the Press try to justify the "surge". He sounded like he had been on thorizine for the past year. But even if he was William Jennings Bryan he couldn't sell that abortion. Bring em on!

gregor, JR, it's only a matter of time before webb is derided as being too hot-tempered. i'm all for stand-up responses, but it's not just a matter of "talking tough."

and guy, if al gore actually decides to run for president again, he will not be regarded as a man of gravitas.

these characterizations are deeply embedded within our political/pundit culture and are relatively independent of the actual realities....

But the exact opposte thing has happened to obama. The press greedily filiatiate him, regardless of position (frankly he bores me). The attacks on him (he's really a muslim!) are absurd in their desperation and convince no one.

Note that now that Al Gore does not act like a poll-tested robot, he's treated as a wise man of enormous gravitas.

I think there is much more truth to this then subsequent respsonses are willing to admit. For all the Daily Howler-documented bull-shit that was thrown at him, it wouldn't have stuck nearly so much if he wasn't obviously trying so hard to be likeable/non-Clinton. I know that West Wing comparisons are anathema, but I think the Bartlett-empty hairpiece debate was a pretty direct rebuke to Gore. Whoever the nominee is this time shouldn't be afraid of looking "too smart" since it's not exactly a hard sell that we've been governed by the too dumb for too long.

With regards to Hillary, let me flip it around. What qualities make her affirmatively appealing, even if we take it as a given that she is not actually loathesome? To me, her biggest selling point is still Bill, which is to say, not much of a selling point at all.

Well, America voted for the guy we would like to have a beer with the last 2 elections and look what we got. We need to make sure people need to vote for competence. If I want to have a beer with someone I will go down to the local tap room with a friend that will have no say in who goes to Iraq!

The trouble with the Left is that they are so seized with their own self importance that no candidate will ever satisfy them. A Democratic candidate's problem is first, with the Left and then with the Right. The Left allows the Right to define the Dem and then add their own vitriol.

Don't worry: soon enough Obama will have his deficiencies highlighted. No candidate, not even Dennis Kucinich, will satisfy them.

Guy, with all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

That's utterly ridiculous. Everything from Gore's carriage to his painfully unnatural manner of speaking to his faux-populist rhetoric contributed to my bad impression of Gore. Very little of it had to do with the dread MSM.

It's very comforting to think that Gore and Kerry were appealing candidates sunk by wicked journos, but that's preposterous. Kerry is a completely out-of-touch douchebag who had absolutely no business near a national ticket, and Gore slit his own throat by not being the incredibly qualified and committed politician he is, but instead turning himself into an Oprah-friendly confection. If this is the opinion of journalists, that might happen to be because it's accurate.

The rethug hate noise machine attacks and smears in a directly inverse proportion to the threat that the specific Democrat poses to the hate machine's interests. Thus, the attacks on Bill Clinton, a more-or-less moderate Republican in his politics who needed to be painted as pinko hippie and trapped in a perjury scheme lest he finally turn the country against the thug right. Generally the same with Al Gore, then John Kerry, with the military nonsense thrown in...And now with Hillary...Again, the bigger the threat, the louder they get, the sicker the smears....That should tell you something...

-

Great point. They fight really, really dirty. It’s time to castrate these mother fuckers who are endangering our democracy.

McCain is an angry nut case who wants to send all of American children to their death for some ass crazy war against Islam. Romney is the worst lying political whore ever. Both support the reckless, extremist Bush policies which are endangering American strategic interest, our freedoms and the safety of our children.

Allowing the opposition to define you is the first mistake. Too often
the primary stands against each other in the same party give aid to the other side. As for the arguement that no one is acceptable only
applies to the idiots that wait for the pundits instructions on what to think. Having lived through the last sixty years I've noticed the
pundits are only monday morning thinkers not worth the effort to unfold
the newspaper. The internets have given me some hope for the idiots to
awaken. As long as fools like Mr. Goldberg and his ilk are given pages
to pollute in otherwise respected newspapers there will be a question as to whether or not the editors are serious about the truth being germane. The last two presidential elections and the midterm follies
are suspect if only for the blind theft of electronic votes. Mr. Bush
is clearly not electable without fraud. People such as BP,6:51pm, say
the Left is selfdeluded with their own importance. It would be folly not to be that way. Nothing is more important than clarity in the goal
to put the best candidate forward. The public are getting plenty of
rightwing horror under the Mr. Cheney administration. Call it the
Caligula effect. A return to voting on paper and hand counting each
ballot no matter how long the chore will answer the need for clarity
in results. blah-blah-blah.

expatjourno,

Fine, so what do we do about it? Whine and lose? Or nominate the kind of candidates (Clinton, Webb, most likely Obama and Edwards) who have the kind of personalities or stories that can survive the kind of attacks that Democratic candidates can expect.

Ms. Clinton has an ace up her sleeve that the population expect to be a defining factor in her administration, Mr. Clinton.

ALL of the so-called "candidates" are personally unappealing in every concievable way.

I put quotes around "candidates" to underscore the fact that we do not have free electiosn in this country -- we have exceedingly expensive elections. Millions are required to put whoever on the line and millions more are needed to see them "win."

The real winners are the cartels that put up the money. And it's THEM who are elected because it's THEM the entire process is designed to serve. The rest of us should consider ourselves lucky if we get a few crumbs off the table.

Hell we should consider ourselves lucky if we can even get a good LOOK at the table!

NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNTIL THIS ENTIRE CORRUPT SYSTEM IS DISMANTLED -- AND THAT WON'T HAPPEN THROUGH THE FARCE KNOWN AS THE ELECTION PROCESS!!!

Gore, Kerry, and Hillary really WERE/ARE uniquely unappealing candidates (I think Gore's reformed, the other two not so much) because of their DLC campaigns.

I agree with the commenter who pointed out that Matt ignored the role that the mainstream media play in this. Time after time over the past several decades, the so-called "liberal media" (SCLM) regurgitate right-wing spin...which is why Democratic candidates get personally smeared while the huge character flaws of the Republican candidate get ignored. For example, many of us noticed the Shrub's pathological dishonesty during Election 2000 -- e.g., the incredibly phony figures he used to justify his then-proposed tax cuts -- yet it was Al Gore who got smeared as dishonest by both the right wing and their presstitutes in the SCLM.

Look, if Jesus Christ got the Democratic nomination for President, he'd be smeared every bit as badly as Clinton, Gore and Kerry. We'd see and hear hundreds of media accounts about the rumors of Jesus's kinky foot affair with a prostitute; we'd see and hear reports about how Jesus turned a nice non-alcoholic wedding in Cana into a free-for-all boozefest; we'd hear nonstop complaints from Beltway Blowhards (both right and so-called "left" a la Joe Klein) such as "Jesus claims he's a man of peace -- Prince of Peace even -- so how come he threw those hard-working moneychangers out of the temple? Which is the real Jesus, the soft-spoken pacifist of the Sermon on the Mount or the street thug at the temple?"

Be prepared for the propaganda blitz. Counter it in whatever way you can, and by God, don't let yourself be brainwashed by it and regurgitate it!

Guy, how much time did you spend with Al Gore in person? I'm betting that every single impression you had came via the MSM.

Larry M, I'm really not sure what to do about it, but no one, least of all Bob Somerby, is suggesting whining as a strategy. It'll probably take a combination of pressure on the MSM, via letters to the editor, blogs like Media Matters, and a lot of other things, plus candidates that are really aware of what they are up against and have a strategy. I'm glad Webb said what he said. I think we need more of that. I think we need to have candidates who have "War Rooms" like Bill Clinton had. Probably other things too, like better oppo research.

Campaigns are covered by the media we have, not the media we'd like to have. Obviously we have to deal with reality. I just dispute that Gore ran a terrible campaign.

This is just such a weird piece, Matthew.

Of course Kerry was an unappealing figure as a retail politician. He'd been known that way for his entire 30 years in politics.

Of course Gore was an awkward figure as a retail politician, if not nearly as unappealing as Kerry. He'd been known that way for his entire 20+ years in politics.

Of course, Bill Clinton was an incredibly charismatic figure as a retail politician, if tarred with the slickness brush. He'd been known that way for his entire 20 years in politics.

And of course, Hillary Clinton is an aloof and somewhat unsympathetic figure as a retail politician. She's been known that way for her entire 20+ years in politics.

Just because Republicans are not going to like any Democratic nominee doesn't mean that different Democratic politicians have different natural attributes in the skills as retail politicians.

None of that means HRC can't win a general election. Al Gore won one, and John Kerry almost won one. But it does mean that like Gore and Kerry, she's not going to be a particularly strong general election candidate.

And of course, Johnny Edwards is a charismatic and likable figure as a retail politician. He's been known that way for his entire 10 years in politics.

It's a favourite Mickey Kaus game.

And of course, George W. Bush was a thoroughly dishonest scumbag as a retail politician. He'd been known as that for his entire 20+ years in politics.

Except that the so-called "liberal media" never told us about that.

I'm really disheartened by how many Dems allow themselves to be brainwashed by the Mighty Wurlitzer and end up regurgitating right-wing spin about Dem candidates.

George Bush is mildly retarded and Dick Cheney is a fascist.

The left just doesn't do as good a job demonizing their opposition.

And Kerry still wouldn't win today.

Gore won, he just conceded before he should have and he could never effectively take it back.

I've been saying the same thing for years now.

When I hear Democrats say we can't nominate Hillary because she will be swiftboated I want to scream.

Which Democratic candidate will not be swiftboated? Which Democratic candidate will not be mocked, ridiculed, portrayed as outside the mainstream, flip flopping, weak on defense, personally unappealing, scandal plagued?

If Democrats don't come to grips with this reality they are doomed. They will continue searching for the perfect candidate who will not be smeared by the Right Wing Noise Machine. It is like Waiting for Godot. They will never find such a candidate. So they will continue losing election after election.

There was nothing wrong with Al Gore. There was nothing wrong with John Kerry. George W Bush the candidate was not in any way superior to his Dem rivals. He was not more appealing, more intelligent, more qualified, more articulate. What Bush had was the Mighty Wurlitzer, the Right Wing Noise Machine. They, with the complicity of the MSM were able to tar and feather the Dem candidates. Dems did not have their own Noise Machine to counter the attacks.

Clinton, Edwards, Biden, Obama..........they are all fine candidates. Stop looking for the perfect candidate. Build your own Noise Machine to counter the GOP machine. If you don't, it doesn't matter whom you nominate, they will be tarred, feathered, swiftboated.

Guy, how much time did you spend with Al Gore in person

None, but I attended several speeches of his, watched plenty more on C-SPAN, watched the debates, and otherwise saw him in about as long-form and unfiltered a context as a voter who's paying attention to him is likely to. He was palpably, painfully trying to be something he wasn't, which was what journalists were picking up on. I don't think it was unfair to pick up on this; if you don't believe in yourself, how can you ask others to believe in you?

I find it ridiculously obnoxious and condescending to believe that no one could possibly form a negative opinion of Al Gore (for whom I voted) unless they were brainwashed into doing so by the "MSM." I also find it ridiculously stupid to pretend that he was an inspiring, compelling candidate and that there's nothing to learn from his failures.

"It would be nice - although not essential - if the democratic candidate could win the "who would you rather have a beer with" contest -"

Bill Clinton was a "want have a beer with" type and they went after him too.

The Right Wing Noise Machine will demonize any Dem running. If you could bring back FDR or JFK and nominate them they too would be mocked and ridiculed and portrayed as unappealing.

The GOP does not run presidential campaigns on issues. If they did they would lose every election. Instead they run against an opponent they successfully caricature. They don't necessarily attack their opponent's positions since the positions are usually popular with the public. Instead they attack their opponent's personal qualities. Liar, flip flopper, weak, etc. The Right Wing Noise machine turns the opponent into a caricature of a human being. The MSM acts as a handmaiden to the GOP. Maureen Dowd types join in the fun, mocking Al Gore's wardrobe and speculating about John Kerry getting botox shots.

Dems cannot defend themselves against this kind of attack with better policy papers. They have to build a Liberal Noise Machine to debunk the lies and do their own caricaturing and attacking.

"But they'll have a helluva time arguing that Edwards or Obama is just an unappealing person."

Are you kidding?

Turn on FOX "new".

Barack Hussein Obama was educated by Islamic extremists in Indonesian madrassas.

John Edwards is the "breck girl", too slick, an ambulance chaser married to a radical feminist.

There is no Dem candidate the Right Wing Noise Machine will turn into an object of ridicule.

After our candidates are totally trashed by the MSM, we sheepishly admit they aren't perfect and start looking for a more "perfect" one for next time. What a fool's game.

I am reminded of the old joke about the ranger in Yellowstone, who when walking along with some Park visitors, was asked what he would do if they encountered a grizzly bear. He said, "I'd run." The visitors said, "But you can't outrun a grizzly." The ranger said, "I don't have to outrun the grizzly. I just have to outrun YOU."

We don't have to have a perfect candidate, we just have to have a better one than the other side.

But making it known that ours IS better than the other side is nearly impossible when the refs (the MSM) are throwing the game. John Kerry was mocked for days in the MSM for mis-speaking while telling a joke. George Bush is unable to utter a single coherent sentence EVER and the MSM cleans up the transcripts of his speeches. Jamison Foser wrote an excellent piece on this problem some months ago in Media Matters. Trying to find a "perfect" candidate in such an environment is futile. We have to address the problem with the refs.

Um, remember Howard Dean? You think that Webb, in a national campaign, wouldn't have his "anger problem" turned into a big negative? I so wish it weren't true, but on a national scale, candidates are marketed like toothpaste and deodorants. Not only the personas, but the issues are invented by marketing consultants to appeal to (1) the media, which wants eyeballs and (2) the public, which will simply choose the candidate that leaves them least worried.

You have to be kidding. This persecution complex is really sad, and what's hilarious is that fringe right wing crackpots feel the same way.

The lessons of our recent candidates are clear and obvious. Kerry shows that, for instance, Hillary shouldn't try to fudge on Iraq or other past mistakes. She should say that given what she now knows she wouldn't have voted for the war and stick to that. Gore shows that she shouldn't try to be warm and fuzzy, because she isn't and no one's going to buy it.

The zeitgeist of this nation has changed. Sure it was pushed and prodded by the Mighty Wurlitzer, but the the shit peddled by this crew was eagerly lapped up by a fearful and pissed off population. No one was made to listen to Rush or Hannity, or watch FOX news, they appealed to an audience hungry to have their beliefs reaffirmed. They helped pissed off conservatives feel they were not alone, they were part of something greater, always under attack, but fighting on the right side of history. It is liberals and Democrats who now feel outnumbered despite every poll which shows a majority of Americans supporting a number of liberal policy positions. It will take years to undue the damage done by this bunch, if it can ever be undone. As for the media, we know news in this country is cooked. I'm waiting for a return of news anchors peddling consumer products, "Mmmm, that's a smooth cup of coffee, it's Savarin." How do we get to uberlords of the networks to adopt a more even handed approach to anything not approved by those in charge?
For the record, I will vote for and perhaps work to elect any of the Democratic hopefuls despite their personal and media manufactured defects.

Let's put it this way. If George W Bush had been the Dem candidate the Right Wing Noise Machine, with the help of the MSM, would have tarred and feathered him and turned him into an object of ridicule. He would not have won the nomination much less the general election.

I think this post on Lawyers, Guns and Money right after the 2004 election would be worth re-reading. I'm noticing a lot of the tendencies described in that post popping up in this discussion.

After all that has been done to us, you people STILL believe in MSM fairy tales.

It's cold, it's ruthless, but (duh!) money spent on negative ads WORKS.

Lee Atwater knows it, Karl Rove knows it, Mehlman knows it. Is it any coincidence that over 90% of the hundreds of millions spent by Bush-Cheney'04 went to negative ads?

John Kerry in February '04 had ZERO DOLLARS to begin his campaign. GW Bush had over 200 million. IS it any wonder that Kerry's record, family, and character were assasinated in the media and in every swing state before he even had a chance to get started? And that those carefully-crafted, focus-tested, and virally introduced perceptions are STILL in America's bloodstream?

It was a MIRACLE of incredible proportions, and a testament to the energy and strength of the netroots, that we achieved money parity by late July.

Sure, it was too little, too late, but we came DAMN close, to within a Diebold-Ken Wellstone in Ohio.

Anyone who still believes that the MSM is liberal-leaning just needs to visit mediamatters.org - The MSM HATES anyone who challenges their world view and Conventional Wisdom, and will hunt them down and kill them.

I suggest you review the history of political campaigns since World War II, and particularly since 1968. The loser is almost always denigrated for personal reasons. I am sure there are good reasons for this, not the least of which is to prevent the 'looking back' that Americans seem to hate.

I have to agree with this. Further, I think it is because of these character assassinations that we no longer have actual assassinations. No need to take out somebody with a gun when you can do it thru the media.

WE have a persecution complex??? So the following makes logical sense?

I)Candidate A: jumps in line to get in National Guard; marks "do not volunteer" on personnel papers; some question as to whether tour of duty was ever finished

Candidate B: decorated veteran who served in Vietnam

MSM coverage: Candidate B is a coward and a liar; did he really deserve medal??; not fit to be Commander in Chief.

II) Candidate A: born into extreme wealth; father is ex-president

Candidate B: marries money

MSM coverage: Candidate B is wealthy, windsurfs, orders green tea, out of touch with everyday Americans.

It goes on and on. I don't even think service in Vietnam or being not-wealthy are necessarily important, but if the conventional wisdom is that they are, why in God's name decide that Candidate B is the "not perfect" one on those issues??? Of course Kerry, Gore, Clinton were not perfect, in any dimension. But could anyone in their right mind say that Kerry's military experience was LESS valid than Bush's? That Kerry's wealth set him apart from ordinary Americans more than Bush's wealth and position as son of a President? That's the kind of nonsense that the Beltway elite seem to propagate.

And unlike most conspiracy theorists, I have NO IDEA why they do it. But anyone capable of logical thought should be able to see that it is being done.

This is why the blogs exist -- to do pushback and to fight the GOP/Media Complex programming.

And David Ehrenstein: You need to check out http://www.PublicCampaign.org. They're working to make money much less of a factor in elections. (Of course Big Media hates them, because Big Media likes the billions in ad revenue that political ads bring in each cycle nationwide.)

Kerry certainly got in the way of himself during the campaign, but let's not forget that he lost by the smallest margin in recent history. Gore, for that matter, won the popular vote, yet he ridiculed for seeking office again.

I often wonder why candidates who do not "win" are so quickly tossed into our national dustbin. We were once willing to have them lead us-- can't their vision and leadership be leveraged in some other fashion?

Daily Howler proved beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the MSM will destroy any Democrat they can lay their eyes on.

They have "liberal" scribes who attack liberals and conservative who attack liberals. The so called straight reporters will repeat any lie about any Democrat told by these scribes.

Daily Howler's thesis is a bit like Inconvenient Truth. It just proves the case perfectly. Anyone who thinks differently is damned idiot. I'm sick of the lies.

I think the "mainstream media" has been pretty fair to the Democrats on this issue. Yes, they've made the last couple of Dem candidates look unappealing, but that's because the last 2 Dem candidates were unappealing. If you go back farther, the basic media portrayal of Bush Sr was an out-of-touch, semi-asshole. Same with Bob Dole. Really, it's amazing how accurate the media caricatures of candidates are, at least when it comes to personality.

I can't believe that there's anyone out there who's been paying attention to politics and doesn't see that Hillary is a bad politician. People just don't like her, even if they can't quite articulate why.

Here's the problem: Democrats need to stop nominating Senators. I can't think of a more unappealing group than the United States Senate. 100 of the biggest walking mediocrities in the world. No -- "mediocre" implies that they're of average intellect, charisma and common sense, so that's much too kind. Maybe Obama is the exception, but the longer he serves, the more likely he is to become a pompous ass like the rest of them. Remember, these people don't have to DO anything. They just talk, and think about how statesmanlike they look in their suits.

Who's better than Senators? I don't know -- governors, generals, businessmen, movie stars, hobos, sex offenders.

As a democrat I really wanted, with all my heart to believe that Al Gore had it in him to defend our American values, to push and smash back against the conservative wrecking machine that has destroyed civil discourse in America.

Then he wimped out on Elian Gonzales. Remember him. A mere child, stolen from his father and taken across the sea to live with distant relatives. His father wanted him back. Al Gore wouldn't take a position. He lost me then and there. I still voted for him, but I never thought he had any conviction about anything after that.

I don't know why people need to hold on to the idea that Gore and Kerry weren't horrifically flawed candidates. It's a good thing for Dems! Gore ran badly and still would have won if not for Nader, a good recount and/or a different Supreme Court decision. Kerry's entire pitch was "I'm not Bush" (seriously—what exactly did he stand for?) and he still almost beat a sitting wartime president.

The lesson is that the electorate's default position is Democratic. As long as we run someone who can articulate some vaguely plausible reason why they're running, we'll win. Edwards stands for protectionism, universal health care and an end to war. Gore stands for environmentalism, a return to the proper constitutional balance and an end to war. Good stuff there. What exactly do Clinton and Obama stand for? Who knows? I predict, therefore, that Edwards and Gore will destroy any Republican, while Clinton and Obama would be coinflip propositions. This is called learning from the fact that we've run chumps, rather than whining about being persecuted by the evil MSM, which punks out Republican candidates just as often and just as unfairly as it punks out Democratic ones.

Mickey Kaus is at his most appealing with his head in Ann Coulter's lap -- provided it has been severed from the rest of his body.

Making money "less of a factor" won't do. It must be eliminated completely before we have truly free elections.

I'm still waiting for the affirmative case for Hillary as far as "likeability" goes. Granting that the smear machine has moved her into the "unlikeable" column, starting from zero, what are her positive attributes. Also, as far as legit negatives, see, eg, this.

(I don't want to get dragged into the Kerry mess, but his high profile stands since the election confirm that he's not particularly adroit. Yes the "joke" thing was blown out of all proportion, but he's not someone who can adeply bring the funny, so why try? And don't get me started on the whole filibustering Alito from a Swiss ski-slope...)

I met Al Gore (and Tipper) as well as Hilary Clinton at an event in San Francisco in 1996. Gore took a couple minutes after the event to take photos with the eight or so volunteers who had helped with the logistics/organization. From the approximately five minutes we spent with Gore I would say he was a genuinely decent guy.

I think Clinton should turn the meme to 'who would you rather sleep with' and that should narrow the field down to her and Obama. I still have that Spin Magazine somewhere.

The general point in MY's post is one I've agreed with for some time. But that point aside, I think that we do have a bit of a hard time figuring how which candidates are genuinely unappealing and which ones are not. We abandon some good candidates because they've been criticized by the right; others we stick with even though they really are not that attractive as candidates.

Gore was a good candidate, despite the fact that the weird debate performances stick in our craw. I always thought Kerry was good, and so did primary voters in 2004, but in the actual election he *underperformed other Dems* on ballots around the country. This is a guy who was liked by primary voting Dems but we couldn't get a lot of like-minded swing voters to push the button for him.

I don't know which one of those Hillary is. But we need to stop looking to either the GOP or the Dem base think about a candidate when evaluating a candidate. Not every Dem frontrunner is as crap as the GOP says they are or as gold as the Hillary-lovers think she is.

Lest we start feeling sorry for ourselves for going down the road of "X candidate would be great, but the attack machine for the other side has demonized them and convinced us to hate them", listen in on the conservative debate surrounding Newt Gingrich. Conservatives have a lot to like in Newt, and yet he's going to be shunned for the same reason a lot of chattering-class type liberals are sour on Hillary. They have people whom we have successfully taken off the table as well. Let's please avoid another pity-party about the "right-wing attack machine".

2000 was the first election I was old enough to vote in, and 2004 was the first one where I avidly followed the coverage of the campaigns....and I will say, it does seem like a lot of candidates on the Democratic side *become* less likable when they run for president. I'm not sure if it's a product of trying to please too many people, of listening to too many advisors, or simply choking on the big stage, but Al Gore really has become more likable since he stopped running for President. Edwards and Kerry really did seem more articulate before they became Presidential contenders.

These candidates really just need to be themselves and stick to their

On the other hand, the press did fellate Bush way too much. I watch that guy give speeches and talk to the press and I see a guy who I would never in a million years want to have a beer with. Has anyone in the press outside of Sean Hannity ever *actually* had a [non-alcoholic] drink with the guy?

I don't think you can watch the news now and say they are still all carrying water for W.

I do think they were in 2000, my guess is they were bored with the Clinton years.

Less so in 2004 and I don't think it's as much that they wanted him to win as an attempt at "evenhandedness". W says something stupid every time he has a microphone in front of him, so by the rules they need to zing his opponent for anything they can grab.

Good lord - both Gore and Kerry were first rate candidates. More people voted for Kerry than have voted for any presidential candidate in history. How is it that a poor candidate, even in the fact of Bush and his thievery, is able to do that?

And. Gore. Won.

If you're saying anything other than they were first rate candidates, who likely would have made more than a satisfactory presidents, then you're buying GOP spin. No candidate is flawless. If Edwards, who may be one of the most appealing people who has ever run, wins the nom, he'll be pegged a light weight and the fact that he'd be a total joy to have a beer with will be seen as a negative.

Poor candidates are reduced to stealing elections and lying about their military history. First rate candidates are well-informed (check), speak well (check) and are basically honest (check).

Bill Clinton was a "want have a beer with" type and they went after him too.

No one has argued that the media and the Republican noise machine would "go after" every Democratic nominee. The question is whether these attacks will be equally successful against every opponent.

Bill Clinton was attacked, and he just became more popular. He won the presidency twice. He was very popular for almost hte entire time.

It seems obvious that some politicians are more likely to get defined by the attacks against them than others. It seems pretty clear that something like "slickness" exists, and it is good. Clinton has it. Reagan had it. Bush has it, in his own retarded way. John Edwards almost certainly has it, Obama too.

Your point is good, but does nothing to dissadue me that Hillary is the WRONG choice.

Think about this:

The leading Republican primary candidate right now is a) guilty of incest and b) a serial adulterer.

Yes, Rudy Giuliani had his first marriage annulled -- after 13 years! -- because he "suddenly" discovered that his wife was his second cousin and not his third. And during his second marriage, he had one affair with an aide, then helped arrange a new job for her with a non-profit organization that received a large amount of city funding. Following that affair, he paraded his next mistress in public while his wife and kids were still living in the executive mansion. And now, he's scrubbed mentions of his children from his second marriage from his exploratory committee's website.

And how much will we hear about all this from the so-called "liberal media" (SCLM)?

- crickets chirping -

All we will hear is about how Rudy is "America's Mayor."

Of course, if Rudy had a (D) after his name, not only would we be hearing 24/7 about the "serial adulterer" who also "committed incest for 13 years with his cousin," but the cable "news" outlets would also give the story its own theme song amd special graphics.

And the same goes for Newt, should he run. We will hear nothing from the SCLM about his own character flaws: his own serial adultery; his serving divorce papers on his first wife while she was in the hospital, recovering from cancer; his car-rocking performance in a parking garage with a mistress half his age while he was running an impeachment jihad against President Clinton over lies about adultery.

I for one do not want to run a "pity party" over this dynamic. I want to destroy the dynamic, though I only see two means of doing this: 1) buy the media, which I consider impractical and almost impossible at the current time, or 2) using the Internet and other media outlets in whatever ways are possible and practical in order to undermine the dynamic.

Implicit in the Gore-was-a-horribly-flawed-candidate blather is the acceptance of trivia, half-truth, and fabrication as being acceptable points on which to base voting decisions.

What should have been strikingly obvious to any thinking vertebrate paying attention during campaign 2000 is that one candidate was highly qualified for the office, the other obviously not.

Sure, candidate Gore was made into a buffoon during campaign 2000, and the RNC and its useful tools inside and outside the media certainly played a significant role.

However, it was the MSM that mainstreamed these notions about candidate Gore. The "invented the Internet," "Love Story" and "Love Canal" nonsense simply scratched the surface of the media's misconduct.

Included were not just attacks on his honesty but also his integrity, sanity, and even his manhood: lying about things like the Buddhist Temple incident and his rural upbringing; using his dying sister and gravely injured son for political gain; writing a wacky book about the reality of global warming; choosing earth tone clothes at the behest of a female advisor--all that, and much, much more demonstrably lacked evidence or were simply false.

These claims were repeated over and over and over again as gospel by the MSM--and still make reappearances to this very day. It would be very foolish to think that this type of daily coverage did not affect public perception and the corresponding way Gore managed his campaign. Literally, one comma out of place was evidence of Gore’s inherent dishonesty.

Little wonder that candidate Gore was seen as very personable in private and very guarded in public.

Even with these things considered, two of the three debates Gore wiped the floor with Bush--initial impressions from pundits and initial surveys of the listening public backed this up. Within a day after each, however, the MSM was busy reinventing this history.

As others have suggested, The Daily Howler’s data base contains the gory details.

I could go on and on but won't.

Bottom line, rather than obsessing about such things as earth tones and delivery tics, perhaps it’s best to base voting decisions on qualifications directly pertinent to effectively leading the country.

Did Webb show his temper on the campaign trail against Allen? Was he able to control it? Temper is not a bad thing, if you use it right. Webb fought back. Gore and Kerry didn't.

I think you're all crazy. Look at the Republican field, for God's sake: what a collection of fools, scoundrels and monsters! The main thing exhibited here is the profile of the "self-hating Democrat." Learn some damn party discipline, you wimps! Line up behind our candidate, whoever they are. Defend them. Somebody says something stupid and evil, throw mud in their faces. They're evil clowns who have to be thrown out of the government. No, not Republicans, the crazy conservatives. Once that's done, then we can relax and talk, alone at night, about which of our successful candidates we secretly don't like. Okay? Join the movement. Don't like Hillary? Think Gore was stiff? Stifle yourself, you losers.

Good way to start losing the election, by buying into the criticism of Hillary and Barak and all the others. Let's back off, give them their chance, and see how this all develops in the coming year. Yes, "year." The election isn't happening tomorrow, you know. So let the mud-flingers, the swift-boaters play their games, and fight to keep the existing declared candidates clean of such disgusting tarnish while they lay out their positions and offer what they can to all of us so we can decide who we want to be President.

Look at the Republican field, for God's sake: what a collection of fools, scoundrels and monsters!

Fools, scoundrels and monsters that the so-called liberal media (SCLM) will describe, incessantly, 24/7, as "nice guys you'd like to have a beer with."

The dynamic is this: The SCLM will smear on a personal level any candidate with a (D) after their name, while simultaneously scrubbing the background of any candidate with an (R) after their name. This is not a complaint; this is our reality -- a reality that we have to figure out how to overcome.

On a very related note, I was actually surprised when, after the latest prime-time speech on Iraq from the Shrub, the SCLM didn't go into their usual waiting-for-the-Bush-bounce mode.

Which, of course, is the mirror image of the waiting-for-the-Clinton-collapse mode the SCLM constantly went into during Monicamania.

"I for one do not want to run a "pity party" over this dynamic. I want to destroy the dynamic,"

I agree. But the first step for Dems is acknowledging it. Acknowledging that the GOP uses the Right Wing Noise Machine to smear any Dem nominee. And that Dems can't overcome this by coming up with better policy papers or searching for the perfect candidate. They have to put in place strategies and structures to deal with it.

I also find it ridiculously stupid to pretend that he was an inspiring, compelling candidate and that there's nothing to learn from his failures.

I would find it "ridiculously stupid," too, if anyone here were saying that either Gore or Kerry is inspiring or compelling, or that there was nothing to learn from either's failures. Idiot.

I still cannot figure out why I'm supposed to hate Hillary Clinton?

Well, whaddaya say we have some pushback this time?

"I would find it "ridiculously stupid," too, if anyone here were saying that either Gore or Kerry is inspiring or compelling, or that there was nothing to learn from either's failures. Idiot."

Well, the Atrios dittoheads are mostly saying that Gore and Kerry were perfectly fine candidates in terms of electability, and that questioning their abilities in winning over swing voters is somehow playing into Rush Limbaugh's hands. And I'd bet they mostly think electability and swing voters are illusions. So I fail to see the difference. Idiot.

I mean, seriously, folks. If you can't even begin to fathom the honest to goodness electability problems created by Gore's personality and Kerry's personality, you've gotta understand you're going to get stuck with Hillary next time around...

Elect-ability will be easy for the dems -- it's the repubs who will be fighting off allegations of their candidates' similarity to Bush. It worked for Jimmy Carter.

C'mon, all those making fun of John Kerry and the "reporting for duty" line: If Bush could have said that--without even the MCM* snickering, he would have. If John McCain says words to that effect, the MCM Kewl Kidz and Wise Men will be all over themselves talking about his honorable war record--and how it will be a benefit to him as Commander in Chief. Plus, his "authenticity."

The point is that the MCM, with the aid and comfort of the Right Wing, will make fun of any Democratic candidate. George Washington could arise from the dead, and if he ran as a Democrat he would be mercilessly mocked. And his actual policies? Who gets their policies seriously considered when they have false teeth? What else is false about his character? And, what about that cherry tree? Did he cut it down at the behest of monied interests (which Dems cannot have contact with, but Rethugs cannot be without)?

The MCM narrative is that Dems suck, are weird, their supporters are either stupid or wildly liberal and out of touch (especially about such things as war and peace, health care, environment, etc.), etc. It's their story and they're sticking with it.

They can and will make any person look "weird," "incompetent," "out of touch"--you name it, it is a way to make fun of someone, they'll do it. Oh, and, most often, not "authentic," which Rethugs are by their very nature!

*MCM--Mainstream Corporate Media

I still cannot figure out why I'm supposed to hate Hillary Clinton?

Me neither, but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to like her, besides the D next to her name...

I think Republicans will end up rueful if they choose McCain, who will probably play very much like Bob Dole in a general election: too old and too closely linked with discredited GOP policies. But no one's really paying attention yet, anyway. Of Clinton, I'll say that people underestimate what a high hurdle she had to clear in winning over upstate New Yorkers. Contrary to the broad perception, New York isn't particularly blue upstate, and she had to win over the same kind of people who now tell pollsters they'd never, ever vote for her. She can do it. As can Obama, and Edwards, and Richardson. We've got a lot of good candidates this time around. But it's awfully early. Kerry was polling in the single digits at this time in the last cycle.

A sure-fire way to repeat the election results of 2000, 2002, and 2004 is to get caught up in cults of personality.

Perceptions about personalities are extremely malleable; for the past decade and a half, Dem candidates have been largely painted unfavorably. Characterizations have varied but have been consistently negative--elitist, immoral, spineless, dishonest, know-it-allish, ruthless (will say and do anything to win), etc, etc...

In the main, we have no way of accurately ascertaining the personalities and psychological profiles of candidates.

So, instead of dwelling the cartoon cut-out characters created and presented by the opposition and friendly media, focus should be directed to candidates' definable areas of competence.

Let's define this next election as one about competence rather than personality.

Who cares what the Right Wingnut BS'rs have to say about the Democratic candidate. The lesson that came out of the 06 election is that the people have seen through their crap and now understand that substance over image is what this country needs. I know this will get mocked all over the place but seriously Bob Casey is not a guy that you would have a beer with but he is damn serious, so is Jim Webb. The country wants serious to solve serious problems left by this bunch of back slapping pick pockets. Gore would be a good choice, Edwards, Obama ect. Hillary maybe. Hell Hagel would be a distinct improvement even for an R. No matter who we run the Wingnuts will smear them. Let them go ahead and play yesterdays game.
The country has left them in the dust.

My my aren't we all a bunch of clever Machiavellian poltical strategists.

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Hillary Clinton is an aloof and somewhat unsympathetic figure as a retail politician. She's been known that way for her entire 20+ years in politics

and somewhat unsympathetic figure as a retail politician. She's been known that way for her entire 20+ years in politics

She's been known that way for her entire 20+ years in politics

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thank you site admin..

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The idea of creating a useful documentation for such projects is quite good, but should not permit to forget that you should also create a technical documentation, referring to all the classes, functions, etc..

The idea of creating a useful documentation for such projects is quite good, but should not permit to forget that you should also create a technical documentation, referring to all the classes, functions, etc..

thanks.ss

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