At Least He Didn't Say "Malaise"!

I do agree with Jonathan Zasloff about this.

Which part: that his claim about Carter is plausible, that it's true, or that we shouldn't accept conventional wisdom out of hand?

I think he has a good point. But one of the questions Democrats need to answer is - what elements of Carter's policy and Reagan's policy created this reaction in the American public?

Was it rhetorical? Was it invasions versus non-invasions? Was it being taken as a chump by the Soveits? Was it the hostage crisis alone?

I think too many Democrats supported the Iraq War because they thought that distinction was key, but I personally suspect it was the ongoing hostage crisis and media coverage. Compare the public's response and memory to the Beirut Barracks Bombing and "Black Hawk Down". That seems to primarily be press coverage and the right-wing noise machine.

Personally, I think Carter should have been more aggressive in the hostage crisis. But aggressive how is key.

Jonah Goldberg's made a career out of being anti-intellectual!

And again, we have Goldberg's weird belief that intentions are more important than outcomes when it comes to evaluating policies.

Damn! If Dreher's epiphany is any indication, maybe "conservatives" can become reality-based again! In fact, maybe we can start using the term "conservative" without ironic quote marks.

What FMguru said. It hardly matters whether Bush 'meant well' or some such garbage: today the Middle East is in flames on account of him, and hundreds of thousands have died.

If you're drunk or stoned, you shouldn't drive or operate construction equipment. And if you're a blithering idiot, you shouldn't be in charge of the foreign policy of the world's strongest country. 'Impulses' won't save you; they'll more likely lead you astray.

I think he has a good point. But one of the questions Democrats need to answer is - what elements of Carter's policy and Reagan's policy created this reaction in the American public?

Never underestimate what Walter Russell Mead somewhat euphemistically calls the Jacksonian element in the national foreign policy debate. The revulsion against Carter had nothing to do with America's objective status as a superpower, which was not diminished in the slightest on his watch. Rather, it was a mere matter of dark-skinned barbarians dissing us (the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan alone would not have cost him the election) and Carter not exacting retribution. Never mind that Reagan didn't either, at least he talked like a guy who would.

Accordingly, we liberals probably shouldn't get too excited about the declining poll numbers for the war in Iraq. Those numbers don't reflect re-evaluation, merely boredom and malaise; not a sense that the war was unwise, merely that we aren't kicking enough Arab ass, and if we aren't kicking Arab ass, wtf are we doing there? That's why there's no support now for Bush's plan to expand the war into Iraq and Syria. But if the Bush admin is able to engineer a sufficiently outrageous Lusitania/Tonkin type of provocation, those numbers would jump overnight.

Ah! Fortunately, Goldberg is able to tease out the real culprit for Dreher's left deviationist wrecking:

One last point. NPR has a habit of doing this sort of thing (so does the New York Times, of course). I was last invited to come on to beat up Trent Lott. Rod's on there to beat up Bush. ...

It's the treacherous liberals again! When will they stop duping the faithful with their sly tricks? If only Dreher had been raised by a right-thinking, connection-providing mother, like Goldberg.

Anger about being lied to is "anti-intellectual" or at least "non-intellectual." I heard Dreher's piece, and it was purely about his emotional reaction back in the Carter administration and his emotional reaction now. He doesn't pretend to analyze--rather he reacts to his betrayal by the conservatives in power, and expresses his need based on this betrayal to reexamine old attitudes. Goldberg is tut-tutting Dreher for screaming after Dreher has been stabbed in the back.

The dishonestly of Goldberg is made clear in his contention that Dreher is comparing Carter's foreign policiy decisions with Bush's. He isn't. Dreher is saying that his perception of Carter's failure helped make a conservative, and that Bush's failure and mendacity are causing him to question those beliefs. If he is comparing two foreign policy debacles, he is comparing Vietnam to Iraq. But the only comparison he makes here is that in both cases, the powers that be were incomepetent liars. And that he was wrong about the "blame America first hippies" who constantly counseled mistrust of presidents and generals.

Dreher is about my age, and he and I made different decisions. He chose to reject the hippie attitudes of distrust and rejection of war, and I more-or-less embraced them. But I understand his feelings--by the late 70s and early 80s, there was a serious smugness about ex-hippies and war protesters and so on that made people my age recoil. Reading Doonesbury, for example, in the early '80s was totally cringe-worthy--Trudeau's strip really embodied this smugness and superiority. (And I say that as a great fan of the strip.) There was a great band in my town, the Judy's [sic], who had a song called "Don't Be a Hippy." On an emotional, "anti-intellectual" level, I think a feeling of disdain helped push a lot of Drehers into the arms of conservatives.

I wonder, now that being conservative has been sort of normal for young people for a generation, if the failures and crimes of Bush and the Republican Congresses will create a push back the other way--especially considering the insufferable smugness of media conservatives.

It's not weird. It's the same argument the President is using today. He says, I'm right and my critics are wrong because at least I have a plan for winning. (Doesn't matter if the plan will actually make things worse.) I suppose to him it makes sense, and it's not fair that the Democrats just get to snipe at whatever he proposes without risking being wrong themselves. But from any point of view other than the President's own (a point of view to which Jonah slavishly subscribes) it's incoherent.

Are the American people really so adamantly opposed to cutting their losses that it can't be explained in this way? Maybe a better analogy would be cutting Iraq free so it can sink without dragging America under with it?

Accordingly, we liberals probably shouldn't get too excited about the declining poll numbers for the war in Iraq. Those numbers don't reflect re-evaluation, merely boredom and malaise; not a sense that the war was unwise, merely that we aren't kicking enough Arab ass, and if we aren't kicking Arab ass, wtf are we doing there?

In my darker moments, this is exactly what I fear, kth.

Creating the impression (perhaps true, perhaps not) that his bellicose statements had cowed the mullahs.

S/B

"Creating the impression (perhaps true, perhaps not) that he had cut a deal with the mullahs, which he later paid off by sending Oliver North to Teheran to clinch and arms deal.".

Denigration of Carter is an essential component of the deification of Reagan, which has always been one of the themes of Goldberg's writing/typing.

Congratulations to Dreher. That was a wonderful essay. I respect people who can frankly examine their own mistakes.

One thing about Reagan: he had truly absorbed the practical lessons of Vietnam and the peace movement. He made damn sure never to get involved in any wars in the Middle East (note how quickly he pulled out of Lebanon), and never to involve U.S. troops directly in his Central American proxy wars. He knew that kind of stuff didn't work. Much better to talk loudly and back off from direct conflict. Unfortunately, his militaristic chest-pounding helped pave the way for people who didn't understand that.

Rod-Boy Dreher, normally one of the sillier people on the planet, has genuinely risen above himself with this piece and is to be congratulated for doing so, but one should also notice that by his own admission the present awful moment marks the first time he has reconsidered beliefs he admits he adopted when he was thirteen years old. What was that Socrates said about the unexamined life?

I found the piece pretty disturbing. The person Dreher described was nothing less than a fanatic for whom reality had no currency--a real testament to the efficacy of propaganda. And yet he was a highly successful conservative "intellectual", honored by his peers and endowed with real influence. A very scary comment on the level of our intellectual culture--although, admittedly, it explains alot.

Pardon me while I chuckle madly, Matthew:

BEGIN EMAIL
To: rdreher@[....]asnews.com
From: max [...]@earthlink.net
Subject: Debate
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 22:02:02
Content-type: text/enriched; charset=windows-1252
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit

Hands down. I never would have thought Kerry would win the foreign policy debate, but he did. And I never, ever would have thought Bush would win the domestic policy debate, but he just did.

And that's the point. Bush makes a great cheerleader. And he's fine when he is dealing with 'domestic policy', as when he was governor. He cares, in a generic way, but the issue isn't important. (To restate that, he cares in a detached way.) He was fine governor, particularly given the relative powers of the governor in this state. He is (bluntly) not a jerk when dealing with domestic issues because he has no passionate attachments on those issues.

That above disregards the actual contents of his policies, which are old-style southern pork-Democrat. Which is essentially the average position of most of the populace.

Unfortunately, ye olde foreign policy requires a cool head, and really, when you get right down to it, a cold heart. Loud talk looks great on TV, and is great for winning election campaigns* but doesn't have that much to do with fighting actual wars.

[*] Political campaigns draw a lot on the tactics of wars, but warriors don't learn much from political campaigns. Whatever Cheney thinks.

Me, I keep telling myself, "Supreme Court...Supreme Court...Supreme Court" to stay on the reservation. That, and "Kerry is Jimmy Carter."

Bush is Jimmy Carter's evil twin.

max
['The main problem with Desert One was that it didn't work...']
END EMAIL

m, snicker

"Bush, by contrast, has gotten thousands of American soldiers killed, ten of thousands more maimed, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi and Afghan civilians killed all in the course of wars losing multiple simultaneous wars."

It is much worse than that.

By the time Bush leaves office US will be trillions in debt due to his reckless tax cuts and the Iraq war. US is regarded as a rogue state even by our allies. Go to any country in Europe and stop people at random on the street and ask them what they think of USA. Not pretty. Bush has ruined US reputation around the world with Abu Gharib, Gitmo, renditions. When Bush leaves office he will leave a country behind with more enemies and fewer friends than when he got in.

Carter made human rights a centrepoint of his foreign policy. When he said he was against torture, death squads, the world believed him.

Carter had real foreign policy success during his 4 years; Camp David. It was truly historic and it has stood the test of time.

Hell, even Nixon had all kinds of successes and bright spots during his presidency.

Bush has no achievements to show for. Everything he touches turns to disaster.

Beside what DonB says above I sing Carter's praises precisely for his NOT going to war against Iran. Especially when war would have been the "easy" thing to do. That was a great step foreward in human kind's ability to say no to lethal conflict.

I hope Dreher's revelation becomes more widespread among conservatives, that contemporary conservatism was simply authoritarianism in a suit and tie. When the country deserved some genuinely conservative discourse, it got flagwaving, populism, and blind faith. Let's hope the light bulb flickers more often.

In terms of policy, there was a big difference between the first half of Carter's term and the second half. The liberalism of the first half brought on the disasters of the turning point year, 1979, during which a chastened Carter began to implement grudgingly a sort of Reaganism Lite that foreshadowed much of what Reagan would do with more enthusiasm.

Great point Steve. But think about this: Imagine how much worse the Glorious Iraq War would be going if Al Gore (who dyes his hair!) had been appointed President. Heck, there's a strong chance that Gore wouldn't have even invaded--a no-brainer decision if there ever were one. Advantage: Conservativism yet again!

Speaking of Carter, I do agree with Jonathan Zasloff about this. It should be noted, however, that while Carter's Afghanistan policy looked bad, it was actually extremely effective.

My understanding is that prior to the introduction of Stinger missles into the conflict in Afghanistan, the mujahadeen in Afghanistan were extremely ineffective. The Stinger was not introduced until well after Carter was out of office.

Matthew on January 13, 2007 07:49 PM

The Stinger was not introduced until well after Carter was out of office.

The Stinger was not introduced into Afghanistan until well after Carter was out of office is that, according to Wikipedia it did not enter service until after Carter was out of office http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIM-92_Stinger If you mean to imply that Carter withheld the Stinger from service in Afghanistan, you appear to be sadly mistaken.

BTW, according to Wiki's entry on Zbigniew Brzenski regarding Afghanistan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski#Afghanistan operations during the Carter administration in the Afghani theater began even before the Soviet invasion. I have read similar information elsewhere.

Regarding Dreher, now he is whining that he was taken for a fool all these many years by his Republican friends, but quite frankly he was. He is being pretty well roasted over the coals in the comment thread on the same subject over at Glenn Greenwald's blog.

Goldberg is really rather silly for calling Dreher's mea culpa "anti-intellectual" is the height of silliness, but something that I would expect from someone over at National Review, certainly one of the more non-intellectual rags around.

Jonah really ought to appreciate that slinging around the word 'anti-intellectual' just makes him even more risible than usual.

I think that Jonathan Zasloff's post is pretty important, and deserves more discussion.

If it's Vietnam that's given the Democrats the reputation as ineffective against foreign threats, then Democrats will vote for wars, even ill-advised ones, as many did with Iraq.

If instead it's Carter and the Iran hostage crisis, then the problem becomes largely a matter of style. The image that Carter projected during the hostage crisis was just awful -- agonized, hand-wringing, confining himself to the Rose Garden, as if that would help anyone. The failure of our military rescue operation wasn't his fault, of course, but it felt as though it was, because of the weak-sister image that he constantly projected.

And do you remember ABC News in those days, with "America Held Hostage: Day 59," and on and on, every night. It made a star out of Ted Koppel, and it wrecked Jimmy Carter. Carter lost all control over the message going out over our (simplistic) mainstream media. That's politically fatal. Why didn't Carter ever go onto Koppel's show and try to project an image of strength and resolve? Reagan would have known how to do this.

It's not that there was anything apparent that the U.S. could have done to free the hostages, it's that the image that Carter projected was so distasteful.

So if Zasloff is right, then the Democrats' problems becomes one of crafting and projecting a strong image, more than of policy. That's much easier, and it leaves far more latitude for adopting sensible policies. I like the idea a lot.

during which a chastened Carter began to implement grudgingly a sort of Reaganism Lite that foreshadowed much of what Reagan would do with more enthusiasm - Steve Sailer

I would argue that what Carter implemented (and not so grudgingly as many perceive ... remember Carter is a military-man second and all-but-formost -- of course he's a Christian first -- and a liberal only third, if liberalism is even that high in his priorities) was more Nixon-light than Reagan-light. At the very least, Carter's people were smart enough about the possibility of blow-back to not have armed the proto-Taliban and nucleus of Al Qaeda as Reagan's people did.

kth, Uncle Kvetch:

These are really ungracious words for your fellow citizens after these elections. They're ahead of the Democratic Party and would have voted for an anti-war Democrat in 2004.

Our foreign policy is impervious to the popular will. Don't blame the public for what elites are doing.

I`m sorry, but what was Jimmy Carter`s response to the Soviet`s invasion of Afaganistan? He boycotted the 1980 Olympics and...?

Sure, he did start a military build-up. Which Reagan then injected with steriods, but I don`t think Carter did much for Afganistan. If I`m incorrect please correct me.

prof, you contradict yourself. first you suggest carter did nothing in afghansitan, then admit carter did do something.

feckless foreign policy? it's easy to start wars. it's harder to broker peace.

and why is there no mention carter's efforts to return the hostages were undermined by outside meddling?

In response to profbacon's question:

Carter's primary response to the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan was to help organize, arm, and fund the Afghan resistance. Since this program was covert, the American public didn't learn about it until later. His public response was to express America's displeasure by doing things like boycotting the 1980 Olympics.

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amından sikilen amından sikilenler amından sikiyo amından sikiyorlar amından sikme amından siktirenler amını ata siktiren amını ata siktiren kad amını ağzına amını götünü siktim amını götünü siktirenl amını kanatma amını köpeğe yalatan amını siken amını siken adam amını siken erkek amını siken erkekler amını sikenler amını sikiyorlar amını sikme amını siktir amını siktiren kadın amını siktiren karılar amını siktiren liselil amını siktiren orospul amını siktiren türk amını siktirme amını verenler amını yaladım amını yalama amını yalamak istiyoru amını yalatan amını yalatan kadın amını yalatanlar amını yalayan erkekler amını yalayanlar amıyla ana kucağına ana kucağında ananın amını ananın götü ananızın amı anasının amı anayın amı angelina sevişiyor annem amına annem ağzına annem domaldı annem domalmış annem götünü annem sikişirken annem sikişiyor annem sikişti annem zevkten annemi amdan annemi domaltarak annemi domaltmış annemi domalttı annemi domaltıp annemi domaltıp siktim annemi kucağına annemi sikişirken annemi zevkten annemin amını annemin ağzına annemin ağzına boşaldı annemin ağzına verdim annemin kucağında annesi sikişiyor annesiyle sikişiyor ar arabada sevişiyor ar sevişiyor ar çılgınca sevişiyor arab penisi arab yarağı arabada arkadan arabada ağzına arabada kucağına arabada sevişen arabada sevişen lezbiy arabada sevişenler arabada sikişen arabada sikişiyor arada arap sikişi arap yarak arap yarakları arap yarağı arkadan adult arkadan alan arkadan aldı arkadan aldım arkadan alma arkadan basma arkadan cakıyor arkadan cima arkadan com arkadan daya arkadan dayadı arkadan dayadım arkadan dayama arkadan dayandı arkadan dayandım arkadan dayıyo arkadan dayıyor arkadan dolan arkadan erkek arkadan foto arkadan geçirdi arkadan geçirdim arkadan gir arkadan gizli çekim arkadan görünüşün arkadan ilk arkadan istedi arkadan istiyor arkadan itişli arkadan kalama arkadan koy arkadan net arkadan pompa arkadan pompala arkadan pompalamak arkadan pompalıyor arkadan porns arkadan rapidshare arkadan s arkadan sarıldı arkadan sarıldım arkadan sek arkadan sevişenler arkadan sevişme arkadan sevişmek arkadan si arkadan siki arkadan sikiliyor arkadan sikiyor video arkadan sikişiyor arkadan siktiler arkadan siktiriyor arkadan sok arkadan sokan arkadan sokanlar arkadan sokma arkadan sokma videolar arkadan sokmak arkadan soktu arkadan soktum arkadan sokuyo arkadan sokuyor arkadan sürtmek arkadan sürttüm arkadan sürtündüm arkadan tel arkadan temas arkadan ver arkadan verdi arkadan verdim arkadan verıyor arkadan video arkadan vur arkadan vurdum arkadan vurduruyor arkadan vurus arkadan vuruyo arkadan yanaşmak arkadan yap arkadan yaptık arkadan yaptım arkadan yedim arkadan yiyen arkadan yiyor arkadan zevk arkadan zorla arkadan zorla video arkadan zorluyor arkadan çakış arkadaşımın penisi arkadaşının penisini arzu okay sevişiyor asyalı sikişi at ağzına at ile kadın sikişiyor at ile sikişiyor at kadın sikişi at sikişirken at sikişiyor at yarakları at yarağa at yarağı at yarağı com at yarağı gibi at yarağı resimleri at yarağı video at yarağı yalayan at yarağı yiyen at yarağı yiyen kadın at yarağı yiyenler atasoy sevişiyor & mus atla sevişen kadın atla sevişiyor atla sikişen bayan atlar atları atların atların yarağı atın amı atın ağzına atın penisi atın penisini atın yarağı avşar arabada sevişiyo avşar gençken sevişiyo avşar kucağına avşar sevişiyor avşar çılgınca sevişiy ayakta arkadan ayağını ağzına ayda sevişenler ayşe teyze sikişiyor azdım azdım kudurdum azgın kudurmuş azgın ve kudurmuş azgınca sevişenler azgınca sevişiyor azgınca sevişiyorlar azmış kudurmuş azmış sikişiyor açık götler ağzına 31 ağzına akıtan ağzına akıtıyor ağzına al ağzına alan ağzına alan adam ağzına aldı ağzına attırıyor ağzına ağzına ağzına biber ağzına bok ağzına boşal ağzına boşalanlar ağzına boşaldı ağzına boşaldım ağzına boşaldım hamile ağzına boşalmış ağzına boşalt ağzına boşaltanlar ağzına boşaltmak ağzına boşaltıyor ağzına boşalınca ağzına boşalırsa ağzına boşalıyo ağzına boşalıyor video ağzına boşalıyorlar ağzına götürmesi ağzına işedim ağzına işiyo ağzına kadar ağzına o ağzına penis ağzına plaster ağzına sok ağzına sokan ağzına sokarım ağzına sokma ağzına sokmak ağzına soktu ağzına soktum ağzına sokuyor ağzına sıçam ağzına sıçanlar ağzına sıçar ağzına sıçarım ağzına sıçayım ağzına sıçim ağzına sıçtım ağzına sıçtığım ağzına sıçtığımın ağzına sıçılan ağzına sıçıyo ağzına sıçıyor ağzına sıçıyor video ağzına sıçıyorlar ağzına tüküreyim ağzına tıkamak ağzına ver ağzına verdi ağzına veriyim ağzına video ağzına yarak ağzına yarak alan ağzına yarak alanlar ağzına yarrak ağzına yarrak alan ağzına yumurta aldı ağzına çok ağzını bağladım ağzını bağlayıp ağzını sikerim ağzını sikme ağzını siktim baba baba kızıyla sevişiyor babam beni domalttı babama domaldım babamın götü babamın kucağına babamın kucağına oturd babamın kucağında babamın penisi babamın yarağı bak kudurdu bakire arkadan bakire sikişen bakire sikişi bakire sikişiyor bakireyken arkadan bakkalcıyla sikişiyor bakmaz götünün bakımlı baldızı arkadan balık etli banu alkan sevişiyor banyoda arkadan banyoda domaltarak banyoda sevişen banyoda sikişen banyoda sikişiyor bayan müşterisiyle del bayan müşterisiyle del bayan sevişiyor bayan sikişi bayan sikişiyor bayanı zevke bdsm beckham penisi bedava am resimleri bedava kudurdum bedava sevişenler bedava sikişen beni al kucağına beni al kucağına elimi beni al kucağına elini beni al kucağına kavak beni al kucağına mp3 beni al kucağına nota beni al kucağına video beni domalttı beni domaltıp beni kucağına beni kucağına aldı beni kucağında beni zevke beni zevkten beni zevkten uçurdu benial kucağına benim penisim bilgisayarınızda bir göte iki yarak birinin kucağına bizim bodrumda boklu göt busreisen böyle göte büyük yarakla sikiş büyüklüğü büyütmek cakici canım yarak istiyor cem davran sevişiyor cm penisim cm penisim var cüce sikişi cılgınca sevişiyor daha dakikada damarlı yarak dana penisi daracık göt daracık göte daracık götler david beckham penisi dayanamam daracık göte de sevişiyor dede sikişiyor dedim ya güzelim sen z delice sevişen delice sevişenler delice sevişiyor delice sikişiyor deliler gibi sevişiyor deliler kudurunca demet evgar sevişiyor deniz seki sevişiyor deniz sevişiyor deniz çakır sevişiyor detmer devam ediyor devran döner horoz dom dilber ay diye doktor bayan müşterisi doktor hastasıyla sevi doktor müşterisiyle se doktor müşterisiyle si doktor sevişiyor doktor sikişiyor doktorlar sikişiyor domalan domalan am domalan bayan domalan com domalan göt domalan göt resimleri domalan götler domalan güzel domalan güzeller domalan hatun domalan hatunlar domalan kadin domalan kadinlar domalan kadın resimler domalan kadınların domalan kalçalar domalan karılar domalan köyü domalan kızların domalan kızların resim domalan kızı domalan liseliler domalan mantar domalan mantari domalan nedir domalan orospular domalan sarışın domalan sarışınlar domalan seksi domalan türbanlı domalan türk domalan video domalan çıtır domalan ünlüler domalarak domalarak sikiş domalarak sikişen domalarak sikişenler domalarak sikme domaldı domaldım domaldım com domalma com domalma fotoları domalma görüntüleri domalma hikayeleri domalma izle domalma ne domalma ne demek domalma nedir domalma oyunları domalma oyunu domalma pornoları domalma pornosu domalma pozisyonları domalma pozisyonu domalma pozları domalma resimleri domalma resmi domalma sahneleri domalma sahnesi domalma sikiş domalma sikme domalma stiriptiz domalma ve domalma video domalma videoları domalma videosu domalmış am domalmış am resimleri domalmış bayan domalmış göt domalmış göt resimleri domalmış götler domalmış güzel domalmış hatun domalmış hatunlar domalmış kadın domalmış kadın resimle domalmış kadın resmi domalmış kadınlar domalmış kalça domalmış kalçalar domalmış karı resimler domalmış karılar domalmış kızların domalmış popo domalmış popo resimler domalmış popolar

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