Better Classicists Needed

Yes, but Matt, if you throw enough nonsense at the problem then sooner or later some of your nonsense is bound to stick. In any case, it's amusing that Hanson thinks the Athenians would have triumphed had the general populace offered more support. Who knew that being an American conservative still meant carrying water for the Athenian stab-in-the-back theory.

What's Greek for Green Lantern?

One point in particular--after the Athenians initially had less success than they'd hoped, they were unwilling to acknowledge a setback (with consequent loss to their prestige), so they tried a "surge" rather than withdraw. It didn't work out too well for them . . .

VDH isn't a classicist, he's a demagogue. his job is not to be accurate, but to stroke the GOP faithful into spasms of righteous outrage against the sinister liberal enemy.

"VDH isn't a classicist, he's a demagogue. his job is not to be accurate, but to stroke the GOP faithful into spasms of righteous outrage against the sinister liberal enemy."

*rolls eyes*

Speaking of spasms of righteous outrage...

A classicist is just someone who knows a lot about ancient Greece and/or Rome. It doesn't require that you be a genius at finding parallels between then and now. There's way too much obsession with that little fetish anyway, one of the favorite pastimes of dilettantes who want to appear learn-ed. In every era of history, around the globe, one finds the phenomenon of misguided military adventurism, whether of the imperial or proximity friction variety. Finding the right chestnut vis a vis Greece or Rome doesn't make you a more insightful political analyst.

VDH: And finally, Sicily did not wreck Athens, despite the horrendous losses of 40,000 and most of the fleet. Within months it was laying down new triremes, and lasted another 9 years, recreating an entirely new navy, inflicting terrible punishment on the Spartan fleet, unwisely refusing all peace-feelers over the next decade, all before being ruined at Aegospotami.

Well that's a recommendation! The use of "unwisely refusing all peace-feelers" is particuarly choice. Bush wouldn't be leading the US into further disaster by doing that!

Come now. VDH has shown that even if the Plus-Up fails, we'll last another nine years. That means America will last at least until 2016. Who cares about that crazy future world? We'll all be long-gone by then.

Actually from what I know VDH is a quite respectable classical military historian. I think his Iraq problems are actually somewhat different and quite simple to analyze.

Shortly before he began his successful second career as a prominent neocon war pundit, personal financial reverses had forced VDH into declaring personal bankruptcy.

I think it may have been Upton Sinclair who once said that it is very difficult to get someone to understand something when his personal livelihood depends upon his not understanding it.

Thucydides is right and VDH is wrong - predictably. The Athenian failure at Syracuse (and the destruction of their fleet) not only cost Athens its naval hegemony, but inspired Sparta to renew the war - this time with the assistance of Persia.

A classicist is just someone who knows a lot about ancient Greece and/or Rome.

but obviously, he doesn't. or, if he does, he chooses to lie about it, thereby misinforming his readers as to what actually happened way back in Greece/Rome.

does your definition of "classicist" have room for either of those aspects? can one be a classicist, if one doesn't know the classics ? can one be a classicist if one lies about the classics ?

cleek: "can one be a classicist, if one doesn't know the classics ? can one be a classicist if one lies about the classics?"

I guess you think that by drastically overstating your case you become more persuasive. Last I checked a person could be called out on various facets of his knowledge or analysis thereof without needing to void his membership in the profession.

Not being a classicist myself I can't speak to Hanson's authority about matters Thucydides. Perhaps his books are all a hoax, propped up by farcical publishers like Random House, and that you, assuredly a classicist yourself, arrived at your opinion independently.

Here are a few trends in neoconservative "scholarship" I've noticed:

1. Classical pseudo-erudition in an attempt to fashion parallels between the past and present. It's not a coincidence Perle's company is called "Trireme Partners" (Greeks defeated Persians, get it?)
2. Lauding civilian control of the military, using Lincoln as the exemplar. Bush, Cheney and their neoconservative functionaries being the analogy to Lincoln.
3. Unreconstructed championing of imperialism, particularly its British incarnation. Too many examples to cite.
4. Slobbering flattery of Americans for winning WWII (they'd have you think the Russians didn't win it). A template for armed intervention across the globe with the added benefit of being humanitarian (as if entry into the war saved Europe's Jews).

Control the past and you control the future.

it really is pretty hilarious that his actual argument is: hey, the athenians held out for quite a few more years after suffering the crippling, self-inflicted blow that was the sicilian expedition. so, um,---look, it's halley's comet--
coming on the heels of the sisyphus thing...it don't look good.

Hanson is/was a good claccicist, and he wrote a couple very important and intelligent books.

It's just in the last decade he's decided to shoehorn increasingly absurd and mangled analogies to World War II and ancient Greece into our current predicament in Iraq.

This is how his formula works: he starts with the premise that we are the good guys, then he looks back in time for other good guys that happened to be at war and finds two of American's most favorite: the Allies and the Athenians (in Athens case, he has to ignore both the fact that Athens had become a tyrannical empire, and was ultimately reduced to rubble). Then he cherry picks or makes up details that support the analogy he's trying to cobble together, and ignores anything that contradicts it.

Last I checked a person could be called out on various facets of his knowledge or analysis thereof without needing to void his membership in the profession.

his profession is as a full-time GOP shill.

Not being a classicist myself I can't speak to Hanson's authority about matters Thucydides.

me either. luckily for both of us, there are people here who do know it and are willing to point out that VDH is wrong.

I am Greek. So I was taught things like the Peloponesian war in high school. Many parts of which are ingrained in the culture.

For all my life, I thought that the infamous Melian dialogue was a pivotal moment when the Athenians lost all moral high ground and turned everybody else against them.

Only in America did I come across the view that the Athenians did what they had to.

Telling, isn't it?

I wouldn't call my old fellow student Victor Hansen so much a classical military historian as a classical social historian. And he is certainly a thought-provoking one, as much as his attempts at comparative military history are at best boiler-plate.

I'm curious about just what MY knows about classicists -- for instance, who are the leading lights of the Harvard classics department? I certainly hope he has more than the Ross Douthat "Heroes for Zeroes" experience to speak from.

But if you want better classicists, try Elaine Fantham, whose public radio commentary at the outbreak of the war suggested Crassus' Parthian expedition of 53 bc as the best analogy. I thought at the time she was being way too pessimistic. I was wrong. Crassus, for what it's worth, shares the utter corruption and wanton indifference to human life of Dick Cheney, but at least had some military competence and the balls to die leading from the front.

Or you might try the right wing classicist Steven Willett who wrote an article in Arion a couple of years ago shredding Hansen's comparative military theorizing on the basis of a thorough knowledge of the classical and East Asian evidence.

Finally, why the animus against Hansen as opposed to the Kagans, who are more harmful and have less intellectual accomplishment and a worse record of badmouthing left-wing scholarship that is in fact far superior to their own? I hope it doesn't have to with looking down on the guy for being from Fresno -- I strongly suspect Victor thinks it does.

The interesting thing is that the thing that really seemed to finally lose the war for the athenians was that they became an oligarchy, which made it so that there was no real difference between them and the spartans. Since the athenians were hated by the upper classes in many of the cities they had controlled because they enforced democracy on them when they took over, the oligarchs used athen's shift to ally with sparta.

Yes the Athenians became like their enemy and so lost the war. Hmm. I don't know if there are any parallels to modern times in that.

Πράσινο φανάρι?

VDH is not a historian, military or otherwise. His BA and his PhD are both in Classics and he established the department of Classics at Cal State Fresno. His early scholarly work (published in acadmeic journals or by scholarly presses) is mainly about Greek agriculture. When was the last time VDH published his work in MHQ? The man is closer to Stephen Ambrose than Barry Strauss.

Sorry, senor snark, you're wrong. Ancient History at Stanford, where Hansen got his PhD, is in the Classics Department, and the department has included such distinguished ancient historians as Michael Jameson (Hansen's dissertation advisor) and Susan Treggiari.

There are also some major non-parallels too. The Athenians were making war on fellow Greeks; there were no cultural, linguistic or religious differences among them, and no opportunity for misunderstandings or enmity based on those factors. Too, the Athenians did not capture Syracuse and depose its government, and they were not faced with guerilla war as a result. The whole campaign was a quite conventional (for the time) military disaster in which one army decisively defeated another. In Iraq, it seems as if no one is capable of defeating anyone and the misery goes on and on. And finally, who is our Alcibiades, the brilliant but decadent general whose enemies hounded him from Athens on trumped up charges right before the war and who promptly betrayed the city by turning over its war plans to the enemy?

Re: The interesting thing is that the thing that really seemed to finally lose the war for the athenians was that they became an oligarchy

Huh? Athenian democracy remained intact (and wayward as ever) through the end of the war, when the Spartans briefly replaced it with the Thirty Tyrants, who proved so noxious they were soon overthrown (which even Sparta did not mind having soon tired of them), and democracy was restored—just in time to try and execute Socrates in a fit of popular religious fanaticism.

I think we can stipulate that Matt was right to criticize VDH in his initial (Jan 22) post. No problem. He seems unnerved by the volume we've generated. What he did not count on was that his members include -- amazingly -- people who do this for a day job. I say, it's been a good conversation. I don't think oligarchy did Athens in, and I'm sad that the amnesty that saved many lives (after the right wing had killed about 1500 or so -- I'll accept correction on that) failed only once, and that that once happened to be Socrates.

Why did Athens fall? Here is one sensible comment: "The Athenian failure at Syracuse (and the destruction of their fleet) not only cost Athens its naval hegemony, but inspired Sparta to renew the war - this time with the assistance of Persia." VDH argues the opposite. ONe problem is, that there was a decade between Sicily and the ultimate fall, and Athens showed amazing resilience in the interim (as it did in the 4th c, while Sparta didn't). This shows among other things the amazing energy that democracies can generate (Thucydides acknowledges this, 8.96). And, in that decade, a whole string of causal variables gets added to the mix. So I'm hesitant to say there was _any_ single cause. Like many worthwhile equations, this one had many variables.

Best,

Dan Tompkins

Well, historical analogies are always dangerous. Some folks wear "Munich" on their sleeves, to bad effect, as well.
It is good to learn from the past, but the question is- just what is it that we learn? Nevertheless the past is fascinating; have you ever thought about the analogy of the Punic Wars with, say the WW2 & Cold War era…. ? Great power defeating a Great power to become a "Superpower.. Sure, swords and sandals, not Me109s and MiGs, but still…
OR- How would Scipio have done against Rommel ?

I'm sure I've read an argument that the Athenians might have succeeded in Sicily if more material resources had been devoted to the expedition. Even so, the Athenians almost did succeed. Thucydides' narrative gives us the impression that the expedition was doomed to failure, but if a couple of things had gone differently, for instance if Spartan assistance hadn't come, Syracuse could have been captured by the Athenians.

I don't think this blunts the analogy between Sicily and Iraq, though. The most powerful point of comparison has always been Thucydides' statement that the Athenians were eager to invade Sicily even though most of them had no idea how big it was, or who lived there, or what a problem they were getting themselves into.

Of course, the bit of Thucydides that's most relevant to our times is the description of the civil war in Corcyra, 3.82-83, where he describes how language is perverted during times of war.

Here's the War Nerd, Gary Brecher, making, with greater vituperation, Matt's point about Athens' Sicilian misadventure in his review in The American Conservative of VDH's latest book:

http://www.amconmag.com/2005/2005_12_19/review1.html

By the way, for all his failings as a foreign policy pundit, VDH _is_ an important historian. See John Keegan's "A History of War" for an account of how VDH revolutionized thinking about the crucial political and military transition in Ancient Greece from the Dark Ages to the Classical era.

"Finally, why the animus against Hansen as opposed to the Kagans, who are more harmful and have less intellectual accomplishment and a worse record of badmouthing left-wing scholarship that is in fact far superior to their own?"

Agreed that Kagan is even worse than Hanson. But Kagan doesn't even try to pose as a real historian, he just pulls false, pernicious, and dangerous arguments out of his butt, like any number of other neocon pundits. Hanson is always flogging his classicist credentials and making absurd and far-fetched historical parallels. Not to mention that Hanson somehow manages an even more patronizing tone than other neocon "intellectuals".

Again, if I may intervene.

I think the greatest parallel one can draw between Sicily and Iraq isn't the one between the campaigns, but about their wisdom of the goal and the political process that led to them.

Thus.

1. Athens didn't really have to go to Sicily. There wasn't any vital interest at stake nor was it crucial in her fight against Sparta.

2. The political process is very interesting for two reasons:
a. In a practical sense, because the people who pushed for the expedition were irresponsible demagogues who simply fed the thirst and dreams for glory and money among the people who voted. Moreover, prudent people like Nikias who did warn against the dangers of such an expedition were branded as cowards, unpatriotic and so forth. Not to mention that Nikias did end up paying by his life in Sicily, the folly of others.

b. Theoretically, because this process was a process without any institutional constrains that allowed for the passions of the moment to prevail. In fact, the American democracy was indeed conceived as a Republic with many veto points in order to rain in on the passions of the people. That I think is a great American invention.

However, the argument can be made, that in modern politics with the introduction of mass media and spin doctors (similar to the sophists that riled Plato so much), all the institutional constrains that were built to protect against the passions of the moment have been corroded.

And that corrosion has led to dangerous adventurisms such as the one in Iraq.

PS. Πράσινο φανάρι; Δεν πιάνω τι θες να πεις. :)

Thanks to Nick Kaufman for his comments. I would add that there's at least one other causal factor in the decision to invade: a dangerously infatuated populace. See 6.24 etc. Thucydides' language here is tragic (literally), about people losing control of themselves. Demagogues played on that.

The American population was traumatized after 911. Invasion seemed a solution. Recall the "Freedom Fries," and Tom Friedman's sick column saying we invaded not because of WMDs but "Because We Could," June 4, 2003. So we were as "mad" as the Athenians, by and large.

Which helped to disable part b. of Nick's post. There is a fine article by Chaim Kaufmann in "Threat Inflation and the Failure of the Marketplace of Ideas. The Selling of the Iraq War"
International Security 29.1 (Summer, 2004), 5-48.

Kaufmann argues that the institutional constraints failed, concluding that:

1. Democratic systems may be inherently vulnerable to issue
manipulation.
2. The administration benefited from its control over the governmental
intelligence apparatus
3. The White House always enjoys great authority in foreign policy
decision-making.
4. The "marketplace of ideas" -- the press, independent experts, and
opposition parties -- failed, "and may generally lack the power to
fulfill the functions" that we expect of it.
5. 9/11 "created a crisis atmosphere"

On #4 the press has a lot to make up for.

One more point, Nick: Thucydides loves a complex narrative. Nicias is for sure the classic warning figure, like some dude in Herodotus, in 6.9-23. Unlike most Herodotean warners, he is also a victim at the end. But in between he's a third thing: an agent of Athens' destruction. If not for his insistence on staying in Iraq -- for the self-serving reason that his reputation would be soiled if they pulled out (7.48), and for his delay during the eclipse, the damage could have been reduced.

Antitheses are treacherous in Thucydides. Alciabiades is destructive in many ways. That does not mean Nicias is always helpful.

MQ's concern about Kagans is well-placed, but they have all received _some_ serious criticism.

Bob Violence makes a good point about the timing of the Sicily attack. Of course, Thucydides got to make the decisions about the elements of that invasion, and he liked tragedy. So getting as close as possible to success fit his own view of things. But hey, it convinced me.

Enjoyable posts!

Dan Tompkins

I've preferred comparing our Iraq war to Burgoyne's 1777 campaign. At it would be a good analogue, too, if only Pennsylvania and New England militias had been using car bombs against each other.

the parallels between Iraq and the Athenian campaign in Sicily is pretty damn weird

Isn't it Fred Kagan's father who wrote the book on all this? So many Kagans, all of them neocon jerks, that it is hard to keep them straight.

"Huh? Athenian democracy remained intact (and wayward as ever) through the end of the war, when the Spartans briefly replaced it with the Thirty Tyrants, "

Not so. Shortly after the Sicilian fiasco, an oligarchic coup was staged. Disputes among the Athenian oligarchs were settled by widening the oligarchy, but democracy was not re-established. Part of the peace settlement with Sparta was a narrowing of the oligarchy to the pro-Spartan 30 tyrants, led by the bloodthirsty Critias.

Njorl, an oligarchic government was established in 411, but democracy was restored in 410. The Sicilian expedition was destroyed in 413, so I'd be careful about drawing any causal links between the expedition and the revolution of 411.

" but democracy was restored in 410"

I seem to have remembered wrong. Well, the coup was followed by a conflict that widened the oligarchy but it seems that Democracy was re-established.

My mistake.

However, I have a memory of Lysander not imposing an oligarchy, but insisting on a narrower one. Was there a change of government right before the surrender? Maybe in the hopes of mollifying the conquerers? I haven't found anything like this in on-line histories, but I remember it clearly. I may be having a Grandpa Simpson moment though, like remembering raspberry trolly cars.

A friend of mine actually pointed out the similarities to the Athenian expedition in Syracuse before the war started, here http://www.spectacle.org/0203/brenner.html . Over dinner one night(before he wrote said essay), he wondered why none of the NYT or Washington Post columnists had made such a comparison. I told him that most of those columnists didn't even know such a thing happened. He didn't really seem to believe that the columnists probably didn't know about the Sicilian expedition.

Good comment.Thanks admin.

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simdi biz bu siteyi kasarken cinsel sohbet birde sohbet odaları
olarak kasmaya calıstık guzel sozler de ilerleme var ona birde mirc yaptık gun gectikce
kelebek script olarak hit alamaya basladık oda olmadı birde kelebek
radyo muz olsun dedik iyi kotu muhabbet oluyordu ama baktık kadınca
çet cet üniversite odaları
nda is yok donduk mirc indir e ondada tat tuz kalmamıs rüya tabirlerine zipladık izmir de oturuyorum iste ..
sonra da yavas yavas ilerlemeye basladık operserv chanserv memoserv nickserv komutlarını yazdık .. bir sonraki hedefimiz sohbet yada chat olacak insallah ..sex seks demi kassak acaba :)

ask oyun itiraf link degisimi siir

Thanks for the great work. !

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sesli tv seslisesli sesliask sesli fıkra sesliefsane sesliyiz sesli türkiyem seslialem sesli dini sohbet ... erzincan universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,erzincan sohbet ... Yüzük Script mirc yüzük cet yüzük script 4 yuzuk sohbet yüzük chat ankara sohbet ankara chat ankara muhabbet ankara arkadas ankara.net erciyes universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,erciyes sohbet,erciyes ... dicle universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,dicle sohbet,dicle chat ... mirc indir,mirc script,mirc yukle,mirc,script mırç,mrc,kelebek ... kelebek cinsel sohbet cinsel chat kelebek mirc myrc script mirc programi turkçe mirc indir mric mrc ... izmir sohbet izmir chat izmir muhabbet izmir arkadas izmir cet çet kelebek sohbet odalari chat sohpet cet kelebek muhabbet çet ... arkadasbul askim - arkadas bul, arkadas arama, arkadas ara ... kelebek host iletisim bilgileri sitene sohbet ekle sitene chat ekle sitene sohbet odasi koy kelebek sohbet , chat kelebek sohbet , cet kelebek sohbet , canli ... sohbet Kizlarla Sohbet Kızlarla Sohbet, Bedava Sohbet Odası ... kelebek sohbet chat muhabbet amasya uiversitesi sohbet chat odalari au sohbet au chat canakkale onsekiz mart universitesi sohbet chat odalari comu ... istanbul sohbet istanbul chat istanbul muhabbet istanbul arkadas

thnks

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