The Sawicky doctrine of war-fighting:
. It should not be enough for some other nation to be an enemy, for it to have nuclear weapons, for it to be a tyranny, for there to be idle U.S. troops not engaged in some other war, for it to abuse its subjects or its neighbors, for it to be universally despised, for the U.N. to vote for its demise. My three exceptions would be 1) self-defense (in the face of an imminent, manifest, tangible threat, or act of aggression), naturally; 2) the threat of genocide, or 3) the near-guarantee of very great benefits at very low cost.
Here's a question about this. If aggressive war is wrong (which clearly seems to be an underlying theme here), and wars of self-defense are justified, why isn't it appropriate for a rich and powerful country like the United States to go to war in order to help defend a smaller, less-powerful country against acts of aggression committed by a third country? I'm not saying it's always a good idea for the US to come to the defense of others, but the Sawicky Doctrine seems to hold that it's always wrong to do this. Why would you think that?
UPDATE: In comments Max substantially concedes the point, "As long as that is what occurring, I don't have a problem with that." Obviously, the concept of defending others is open to abuse, particularly on the level of rhetoric. Then again, the concept of self-defense is likewise oft-abused in that virtually every war is soaked in the rhetoric of self-defense, often on absurdly far-fetched theories, but we still don't abandon the concept. I should say that Max's (2) strikes me as too lax in some ways and too strict in others.
Comments
Is this a useful debate to be having at this time?
"the Sawicky Doctrine seems to hold that it's always wrong to do this. Why would you think that?"
Because Max, bless his heart, is reflexively anti-war.
Wouldn't defense of other countries be covered under exception #3?
"Is this a useful debate to be having at this time?"
Yeah, dude. Stuff like this makes you just as irresponsible as Mickey.
Be more useful and less interesting, fergawdsakes.
(1) It's not a good debate to be having at this time. That being said,
(2) Without going into too much detail, Max would likely cite the historial behavior of nations which engage in imperial ventures. For a whole host of reasons, you let the genie out of the bottle, and fallible governments don't limit themselves to the few cases of genuine need and justification. Build a big army and it WILL be used. Start intervening in wars around the world, and percieved national interests will trump what's just. Which is why I've reluctantly come to the conclusion that even Max' 2nd and 3rd rationales have practical problems.
Oh, heck, IOZ, you reading this? You can swat this one down better than I can.
I guess it's imperative that we liberals all go on record as stating that there are certain wars, albeit not THIS war, that we would gladly support. I guess.
The question is, when is it justified to help other countries? For the past few administrations, it seems justified only when US vital interests are involved, which make it hard to distinguish from wars of aggression. On the other hand who made the US the policeman of the world? Shouldn't the world as a whole bear this burden?
Wouldn't defense of other countries be covered under exception #3?
I don't see how. I mean, you might try to argue that no matter how small or insignificant the conquered country, liberating it is inherently a "very great benefit" to those liberated. But it doesn't seem safe to assume that defense of other countries will always entail "very low cost" to the U.S. But that doesn't mean (I think Matt is implying) that we should bar wars in defense of other countries.
And if not "at this time", I think liberals need to have this debate *sometime*. Some variant of just war theory seems like something worth reestablishing as our guidepost.
"I'm not saying it's always a good idea for the US to come to the defense of others, but the Sawicky Doctrine seems to hold that it's always wrong to do this. Why would you think that?"
I don't speak for Sawicky, but the operative word in your question is "US". Why is it incumbent on the US (certainly not the only rich and powerful country in the world) to act like the world's sole superhero?
If the cause is truly just (i.e., protecting a smaller country from acts of aggression by a third country), certainly other rich powerful countries will join -- and join in a significant way, yes?
Those are pretty murky, subjective conditions, bordering on being uselss. I would imagine most Americans believed the Iraq invasion would easily fall into #3, and a lot would argue #1 and #2.
Yep. All three of Sawicky's conditions applied to Iraq.
"3) the near-guarantee of very great benefits at very low cost."
When Sawicky gave himself this out, he put himself in the same moral basket as Mr. Cheney as far as I can see. Presumably Mr. Cheney thought that the benefits of the Bush-McCain war were far greater than any possible costs, and continues to think so (thus prompting the 'double down'). Now, his judgement comes to a different conclusion thann Swicky's but I don't see how it differs morally.
Cranky
QED. Al (thanks man) demonstrates empirically why (1) Matthew is wrong to suggest an additional circumstance where war was justified beyond Max' three, and (2) why even Max' three conditions are too broad.
For the past few administrations, it seems justified only when US vital interests are involved, which make it hard to distinguish from wars of aggression.
That doesn't seem right to me. The question is whether defense of others is justified. If it is justified, then surely defense of others and defense of vital interests is also justified.
The liberation of Kuwait in 1991 by a broad American-led coalition, by signalling that major acts of cross-border larceny wouldn't be tolerated, had a globally salutary effect, helping usher in a decade of impressive levels of peace and prosperity.
Unfortunately, the younger Bush has undone much of the accomplishment of his father.
Also, yes, Condition 3 borders on the meaningless. It would also seem to license certain acts of unchecked aggression -- war to conquer the oil fields of Alberta, for example. I think we actually might be welcomed as liberators if we did that.
Al has demonstrated that no matter how closely you circumscribe the conditions, someone can always argue that they've been satisfied. After all, even if they're 100% wrong, you have no way of proving that, right? You're left with nothing but a "debatable" point.
Thus, laying out express conditions is not only a useless exercise, but counterproductive. For a more obvious version of this conclusion, consider what a meaningless platitude "war should only be a last resort" has become in the mouths of people like George W. Bush.
Because Max, bless his heart, is reflexively anti-war.
By "war" you mean that large scale murder and destruction?
If so, one can't be reflexively anti war, just normal. Maybe sometimes the large scale murder and destruction is unavoidable, but "let's all talk of it in a serene, balanced way" is just a very militaristic thing to say.
On to Alberta!! Okay, given my stated policy beliefs I suppose I shouldn't even joke about that.
More seriously, regarding Matthew's 4:23 post, the danger, given the world in which we live, is that if we say that defense of others plus vital interests justify war, we are likely to (in practice) give far more emphasis to the second haf of the equation, to the point where the so called defense of others gets (a) construed very broadly, and (b) is an excuse for what we want to do to benefit ourselves, rather than a real policy motive.
War supporters certainly argued for the war on all three grounds, though I didn't find their formulations particularly reasonable. I don't think one can really put down in words a pithy war doctrine that could never be misapplied or twisted, not that I'm saying Max was attempting to. You really have to take these things on a case by case basis and use some common sense. Even a document as well thought out as the Constitution can fall apart if various actors willfully ignore its overall principles.
But as general guidelines, these aren't bad, and I would probably add defense of an invaded nation as #4, under similar logic to the idea behind #2, and would add the caveat that all four (especially #3 and #4) need to be rigorously scrutinized such that none serves as a flimsy pretense toward an altogether different purpose.
Max's conditions would appear to make the British and French declarations of war on Germany on September 3, 1939, unjustified. the only possible way that this could be justified is on Max's #2 - threat of genocide - but I don't think that applies. The genocide of the Jews only really began with the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941.
Would Max extend "self-defense" to include the defense of countries one has agreed by treaty to defend? The Soviets invading western Europe, I'd imagine, would have to qualify, for instance. What about the Korean War? Again, none of Max's benchmarks seem to apply, but i find it hard to say that the right thing to do would have been to let the North overrun the south.
So, basically, I think I agree with Matt. Some kind of provision for defense of others from outright aggression ought to be considered as justifying war.
My three exceptions would be 1) self-defense (in the face of an imminent, manifest, tangible threat, or act of aggression),
Yes.
naturally; 2) the threat of genocide,
The whatsisandwhosis? What constitutes genocide and the threat thereof? There are limited circumstances in which I would support this theory. For one thing, it would need to be a genocide (not some sort of 'ethnic cleansing) lest you wind up killing more than you save, and it would also help if there were actually a threat. In most of the circumstances I have seen where people were calling things genocide, a> they weren't and b> the problem could be dealt with by arming resistance groups.
or 3) the near-guarantee of very great benefits at very low cost.
There is no near-guarantee ever.
why isn't it appropriate for a rich and powerful country like the United States to go to war in order to help defend a smaller, less-powerful country against acts of aggression committed by a third country?
As long as that is what occurring, I don't have a problem with that. I have noticed, tho, that many 'acts of aggression' are retaliating against 'acts of aggression'; who defines which ones are considered which tends to be people from the given region who have an ax to grind, and would like the US Army to do their work for them. The answer to that one is NO.
Steve: The liberation of Kuwait in 1991 by a broad American-led coalition, by signalling that major acts of cross-border larceny wouldn't be tolerated, had a globally salutary effect, helping usher in a decade of impressive levels of peace and prosperity.
The first problem I have is, is that we encouraged (or at least tolerated) and laid the groundwork for that particular act of cross-border larceny, in the process of 'defending' against somebody. Minus American intervention in the first place, none of that comes about. Second, it doesn't take much to switch from organizing to defend to organizing to attack. Which is HOW Bush undid whatever his father achieved. Three, I am real not clear that stomping on Kuwait did anything to encourage peace and prosperity; it seems to me that Saudi Arabia opening the spigots to their oil wells had a lot more to do with that. (I could then make the argument that defending Saudi Arabia was the important act, not liberating Kuwait.)
Fourth, simply succeeding encourages people to think we should run around defending everybody against everybody else, which is precisely why the DoD costs too damn much, since we have 750+ overseas bases to pay for and 200 divisions (more now) worth of defensive commitments. Such a system is not sustainable over the long run. If we ever actually brought our commitments in line with our capabilities, closed bases and whatnot, we might then be in position to intervene against acts of aggression when we needed to, without getting tied down all over hell and creation. Imperial 'realism' though demands we have to work to base in every country on the planet, which provokes or demands acts of aggression and pretty soon you're up to your armpits in little imperial wars. Which is how we got here.
m, and I don't like it here
"If aggressive war is wrong (which clearly seems to be an underlying theme here), and wars of self-defense are justified, why isn't it appropriate for a rich and powerful country like the United States to go to war in order to help defend a smaller, less-powerful country against acts of aggression committed by a third country?"
My first instinct was to reply that of course defense of others is valid, but I think it isn't completely so.
If another nation's security is of sufficient interest to a powerful nation, then they should make a treaty of mutual defense. This reduces the likelihood of the initial aggression. Had the US guaranteed Kuwait's security before the Iraqi invasion, a lot of trouble would have been avoided.
There are complications to this rather simple idea. Sometimes a security agreement can cause more problems than it solves. For example: Today, the US would almost certainly come to the defense of Taiwan if it were attacked by China. China does not really have any intention of invading Taiwan. If the US did sign a security agreemnent with Taiwan, China would immediately set into motion plans to invade it. The preventive measure would be the direct cause of that which it is designed to prevent. But aside from these tricky situations, nations should try to make their priorities well known.
It should be noted that US foreign policy - at least in East Asia - is based on creating a deterrent to China and NK (and to a lesser extent, Russia) against invading Japan, Korea and Taiwan, along with other possible allies or neutral countries in Asia that are much weaker than China in the event it goes crazy (again) (Thailand, the Philippines, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand). This probably fits somewhere into this question, but I'm too lazy right now to figure out how.
"and would add the caveat that all four (especially #3 and #4) need to be rigorously scrutinized such that none serves as a flimsy pretense toward an altogether different purpose."
I think this point by Royko is really the key. The basic premise that other nations can, and should, come to the aid of a nation that has been attacked is fairly irrefutable. Nations without any significant standing armies rely on treaties for military protection. The point really is how it is determined whether an "act of agression" was significant enough to justify another nation sending in troops. As you recall, one of the main and, IMO, most persuasive arguments against attacking Iraq was that we did not get U.N. justification for the attack. Regardless if you support the U.N as it is currently constituted, it is hard to argue against the proposition that there has to be some international process that relies on rule of law to justify the sort of military action proposed in this post.
Would number four give other countries the right to declare war on the US for invading Iraq? If Russia had invaded Saudi Arabia for alleged connections to Chechnyan terrorists, wouldn't the world have been rightly outraged? I'm just saying that it is hard for countries to be objective when evaluating their motives. There has to be some external mechanism whereby those motives can
be properly tested.
As I understand it, the Security Council can authorize defense of a state that's been attacked; but if American bigshots decide to be heroes on their own without Security Council authorization, that's a crime.
The UN/Security Council model is imperfect of course, but it's the best thing we have. Yeah yeah, I know, Americans think global lawlessness is fine as long as America is the criminal. Well, I don't. America has invaded the wrong country way too many times to be trusted again.
The irritation I experience looking at Sawicky's doctrine reminds me of the irritation I experience when listening to Norah O'Donnell grill guests as a co-host on Hardball (shorter: Sawicky's doctrine would benefit from Sawicky taking the course Public International Law 101).
One point is missing that Matt has stated earlier: A war is only just if it is won at the end. Nothing good comes from a lost war.
Another point: we have a great military not to fight war (contra Madeleine Albright!), but to have a deterrent that makes fighting unnecessary. Starting from this point I'd argue that whenever this deterrence fails - the big stick doesn't work - this may be because in the ensuing fight we are not well positioned to win. Our threat is not credible to the adversary beause it is objectively not credible. To follow up a non credible threat with war is therefor probably always a mistake. (Interestingly Saddam found the threat credible. Bush could have converted his gamble into a spectacular diplomatic victory. He chose defeat instead.)
As to fighting to help victims of aggression: only if a credible party is there that can be helped (the regimes in South Vietnam or El Salvador would not qualify for example) such as in the hypothetical attack of the Sowiet Union against Western Germany. Or when the Brits helped the French in World War II (by 1939 it was clear though that Hitler was going to attack sooner or later, the French/British declaration of war was just picking the time for the fight rather than letting Hitler choose it. Not that it helped much as it turned out).
"the Sawicky Doctrine seems to hold that it's always wrong to do this. Why would you think that?"
First, we should never say "always". Every principle is susceptible to bending if the circumstances are extreme enough.
But in general, as to why it's wrong to intervene on behalf of invaded nations (while holding that aggression is wrong and self-defense right)...
1) Because nation-states are not altruistic actors. Of course, in our third-grade intellectual culture it's an unquestioned article of faith that the United States is a benevolent, selfless power, the first in world history--and surely comparable concepts are held to be true by other people in other countries. But in the real world all nation-states act in accordance with their interests as they percieve them, and this would no less be the case should one decide to intervene on the behalf of another.
When a liberal endorses intervention, he's doing so presumably because he considers an invasion by one nation against another to be the highest sort of injustice, worth killing for in order to rectify. But when the nation-state actually intervenes, it won't being doing so in the name of justice; it will be intevening in pursuit of its interests, hoping to reinstitute the status quo ante or exploit an opportunity. So the liberal must come to some sort of reckoning, if he's not self-deluded: his country has intervened and begun killing others, but not in order to end an injustice. It's killing for practical gain. Can a liberal support that? It seems to me that he can't, if he wishes to remain true to his principles.
Of course, you can call this an intentionalist argument and point to the actual consequence: that an aggressor nation was in fact fought back. But this is too narrow a view to take. If nation-states are selfish actors and intervene in conflicts in order to reap rewards, you can be assured that, if its intervention is successful, the intervening nation will impose its demands on the rescued country. Which makes the intervening country in effect a kind of aggressor, beating back one party in order to impose its demands on another. Can the consistent liberal support that? I don't see how.
2. Aggression is wrong because it takes life. Self-defense is right because it preserves (one's own) life. Third-party intervention takes life and causes one's own life to be taken.
Contra Matt ("If aggressive war is wrong, and wars of self-defense are justified, why isn't it appropriate for a country like the United States to go to war in order to help defend a smaller, less-powerful country against acts of aggression committed by a third country?"), adherence to the ideas that aggression is wrong and self-defense right actually leads one to oppose third-party intervention in general.
Re: the update, that was another Max.
In general I appreciate the feedback. You have a rough draft of a doctrine. It's not my regular job. Doubtless it could stand improvement.
Naturally any precept can be corrupted in the hands of a leader. The best reason in the world could be sheer fabrication. I am a reformist, not a revolutionary, so I have to at least assume leadership might be able to act in good faith. When you see leaders who can't, I think the doctrine becomes very simple: trust nothing you hear and let them do as little as possible.
In a post justifying his attack on the netroots as insufficiently intellectual, insufficiently left, and overly partisan, and attacking the netroots' anti-war arguments, Sawicky outlines his "doctrine" of international aggression. This is inane. You don't prop yourself up as a deep-thinker and then propose something that ignores centuries of international legal development. Smarter people than Sawicky have spent their lives examining this subject, and perhaps Sawicky should crack open a few of their books before outlining his own theories. Sawicky's weak mea culpa: "You have a rough draft of a doctrine. It's not my regular job. Doubtless it could stand improvement." Not good enough. If you want to play the wise, old sage, then you should refrain from pontificating on whatever happens to strick your fancy. Stick to economics.
Matthew Y:
Given your past fallibility, you should avoid this kind of speculating about the justifiability of hypothetical wars the way a hard-case alcoholic avoids a barstool.
Paul: Life is too short to embark on a study of international law. As a citizen I think I have some obligation to opine on this. I've made clear it is not an area of professional expertise. By your logic most blogs including this one would have to shut down.
More narrowly: my purpose is not to explicate what the law stipulates. It's to envision what a reasonable policy might be. I suppose the law would provide some guidance, but so what. You figure the rest out.
The question is, when is it justified to help other countries? For the past few administrations, it seems justified only when US vital interests are involved, which make it hard to distinguish from wars of aggression.
There's a crucial distinction that's being blurred here, I think. We can ask the question, "When is one justified in going to war in defense of other countries?" and we can also ask "Under what conditions ought the U.S. in fact go to war in defense of other countries?"
The answer to the first question is that one is always justified in responding to acts of aggression. Aggression is the international equivalent of a crime, and, as with crime, one is always justified in attempting to stop criminals. That, however, is different from saying that it is prudent to attempt to stop this particular criminal in the course of committing this particular crime.
To put the point in more technical terms, acting in response to aggression is a necessary condition for going to war in defense of another nation. But it is not a sufficient condition. A nation ought not go to war if, for instance, it has zero chance of winning or the costs of winning are likely to be higher than the benefits of waging war.
Saying that the U.S. goes to war only when its vital interests are at stake is not equivalent to saying that the U.S. always engages in wars of aggression. It is entirely possible that a nation could fight a just (i.e., defensive) wars that serves its vital interests.
"Paul: Life is too short to embark on a study of international law. As a citizen I think I have some obligation to opine on this"
Fair enough. As do the mindless drones who participate in the Netroots. Lack of knowledge should never be a hinderance to participation in democratic discourse. Democracy is founded on the idea of everyone being their own best judge of "the good." The Netroots is a way in which people can participate in that discussion.
And my criticism wasn't that you got the law wrong. My criticism was that you're in no position to "envision what a reasonable policy might be," from an intellectual perspective, until you study up a bit. I never said you should shut up, just that you shouldn't criticize people for participating in democratic discourse when that is exactly what you are doing.
We should probably continue this over a water pipe with light from a lava lamp, but when did I criticize anyone for participating in democratic discourse? The more the merrier. What's wrong with richer discourse, more independent of the resorts to which elected Democrats are constrained?
"3) the near-guarantee of very great benefits at very low cost."
So aggressive war is OK if it's profitable and easy? By that measure, Hitler's invasion of Poland was the "good war." Lebensraum on the cheap.
It's not like Sawicky to be so intellectually sloppy. He needs to rethink.
Max's #3 is the main problem...it's no different than the Iraq War.
You don't commit mass murder to gain extraordinary benefits for minimal cost...you cannot justify war or murder by better conditions afterward.
PP: "Benefit" in my litany means the attainment of noble and ethical goals, not the ability to beat up others.
Jimm: Mass murder would sort of subtract from the benefit side, or add to the cost side, depending on your accounting conventions.
"You don't commit mass murder to gain extraordinary benefits for minimal cost...you cannot justify war or murder by better conditions afterward."
In 1942, the Japanese wanted peace with the US. We would leave them with their gains, and end the war. Our casus belli with Germany would then be gone before we began any real fighting with them. Our only reasons for continuing the war was to gain a better situation for ourselves. Was it wrong of us to continue fighting?
thank
selam
selamlar
selamci
seksi
farz
Good comment.Thanks admin.
Thanks
Best regards
mirc
mirç
mırc
mırç
mircturk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mirc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırcturk
turkmırc
mırc turk
turk mırc
turkiyemirc
türkiyemirc
turkiye mirc
türkiye mirc
mircturkiye
mirctürkiye
mirc turkiye
mircturk
turkmırc
muhabbet
forum
forum
turkforum
turkiyeforum
mirc
turkmirc
toplist
site ekle
pagerank
turkmirc
turkforum
sohbet
chat
sohbet odaları
bedava sohbet
bedava chat
türk
karar
porno
sex
hikaye
sex
hikaye
porno
sex
sex shop
seks shop
güzel sözler
mirc
porno
güzel sözler
hikaye
mirc
hikayeler
mirc
kelebek
elektronik sigara
elektronik sigara
elektronik sigara
sex
porno
hikaye
sex
porno
mirc
seks shop
hikayeler
hikaye
sex
hikayetube
sex |
porno |
hikaye |
sex hikayeleri |
sex hikaye |
sex porno |
seks shop |
geciktirici |
penis büyütücü |
hikaye |
hikaye |
sex |
videohikaye.com |
sex |
porno |
hikayetube.com |
porno |
mirc |
yüzük |
güzel sözler |
elektronik sigara |
pilli sigara |
elektronik sigara |
elektronik sigara |
elektronik sigara
mirc
Thanks Best Regards
mirc
mırc
mırç
mircturk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mırc indir
mirç indir
mirc yükle
mırc yükle
mirc yukle
mırc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırc turk
mircada
mircturkiye
muhabbet
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc chat
mırc ındır
mirc ındır
türkçe mirc
turkce mirc
turkçe mırc
turkce mırc
oper mirc
sohbet
forum
chat
online sinema
catlak
türk forum
turk forum
kafkas
kafkasya
ders
siyaset
Sohbet
chat
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli chat
sesli
kameralı chat
kameralı Sohbet
goruntulu chat
goruntulu Sohbet
Sohbet odaları
chat odaları
Sohbet sitesi
chat sitesi
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli chat
Sohbet
chat
Sesli Sohbet
Sesli chat
Sohbet
chat
Thanks Best Regards
mirc
mırc
mırç
mircturk
mirctürk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mırc indir
mirç indir
mirc yükle
mırc yükle
mirc yukle
mırc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırc turk
mircada
mircturkiye
muhabbet
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc chat
mırc ındır
mirc ındır
türkçe mirc
turkce mirc
turkçe mırc
turkce mırc
oper mirc
simdi biz bu siteyi kasarken cinsel sohbet birde sohbet odaları
olarak kasmaya calıstık guzel sozler de ilerleme var ona birde mirc yaptık gun gectikce
kelebek script olarak hit alamaya basladık oda olmadı birde kelebek
radyo muz olsun dedik iyi kotu muhabbet oluyordu ama baktık kadınca
çet cet üniversite odaları
nda is yok donduk mirc indir e ondada tat tuz kalmamıs rüya tabirlerine zipladık izmir de oturuyorum iste ..
sonra da yavas yavas ilerlemeye basladık operserv chanserv memoserv nickserv komutlarını yazdık .. bir sonraki hedefimiz sohbet yada chat olacak insallah ..sex seks demi kassak acaba :)
ask oyun itiraf link degisimi siir
Thanks for the great work. !
muhabbet - sohbet odaları - mirc indir - mirc indir - çet - kelebek - script - mirc indir - arkadas - chat - sohbet odaları - kelebek - sohbet - radyo - çet - cet odaları - portalsohbet ekle -
kelebek - kelebek - turk sohbet - çet - muhabbet - muhabbet - turkce mirc - sohbet odaları - sohbet - cinsel chat - mynet chat -
izmir sohbet cinsel sohbet kelebek mirc operserv chanserv siir botserv zurna mynet ataturk universitesi sohbet chat odalari au sohbet au chat kelebek script kelebek script kelebek mirc kelebek skript mric gazi universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,gazi sohbet,gazi chat,kelebek duzce universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,duzce sohbet,duzce chat ... ege universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,ege sohbet,ege chat,kelebek dumlu pınar universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,dumlupınar sohbet ... memoserv, memo serv,memoserv komutlari mesaj komutlari irc mesaj ... mirc indir kamerali mirc yabanci mirc mirc 6.21
sesli tv seslisesli sesliask sesli fıkra sesliefsane sesliyiz sesli türkiyem seslialem sesli dini sohbet ... erzincan universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,erzincan sohbet ... Yüzük Script mirc yüzük cet yüzük script 4 yuzuk sohbet yüzük chat ankara sohbet ankara chat ankara muhabbet ankara arkadas ankara.net erciyes universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,erciyes sohbet,erciyes ... dicle universitesi sohbet chat odalari ,dicle sohbet,dicle chat ... mirc indir,mirc script,mirc yukle,mirc,script mırç,mrc,kelebek ... kelebek cinsel sohbet cinsel chat kelebek mirc myrc script mirc programi turkçe mirc indir mric mrc ... izmir sohbet izmir chat izmir muhabbet izmir arkadas izmir cet çet kelebek sohbet odalari chat sohpet cet kelebek muhabbet çet ... arkadasbul askim - arkadas bul, arkadas arama, arkadas ara ... kelebek host iletisim bilgileri sitene sohbet ekle sitene chat ekle sitene sohbet odasi koy kelebek sohbet , chat kelebek sohbet , cet kelebek sohbet , canli ... sohbet Kizlarla Sohbet Kızlarla Sohbet, Bedava Sohbet Odası ... kelebek sohbet chat muhabbet amasya uiversitesi sohbet chat odalari au sohbet au chat canakkale onsekiz mart universitesi sohbet chat odalari comu ... istanbul sohbet istanbul chat istanbul muhabbet istanbul arkadas
extraordinarily good
Thanks Best Regards
mirc
mırc
mırç
mircturk
mirctürk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mırc indir
mirç indir
mirc yükle
mırc yükle
mirc yukle
mırc yukle
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc ındır
kafkas
kafkasya
adige
irc forum
mirc forum
irc forum
mirc forum
irc forum
mirc forum
mirc
mirç
mirc inndir
türkçe mirc
mirc download
forum
sohbet
chat
catlak
simdi biz bu siteyi kasarken cinsel chat birde sohbet odaları
olarak kasmaya calıstık iki sohbet de ilerleme var ona birde mirc yaptık gun gectikce
kelebek script olarak hit alamaya basladık oda olmadı birde kelebek
tükçe mirc indir muz olsun dedik iyi kotu muhabbet oluyordu ama baktık sohbet
çet cet odaları de is yok donduk indir e ondada tat tuz kalmamıs mirc
tabirlerine zipladık izmir de oturuyorum iste .. sonra da yavas yavas ilerlemeye basladık
mirc odalarına kadar geldik .. bir sonraki hedefimiz
yada mIRC olacak insallah ..
chat sohbet
mynet sohbet
kızlarla sohbet
sohbet siteleri
islami sohbet
sesli sohbet
kameralı sohbet
sohbet odaları
sohbet net
kelebek sohbet
alem sohbet
canlı sohbet
bedava sohbet
dini sohbet
ideal sohbet
erotik sohbet
internet sohbet
almanya sohbet
bol sohbet
yazgülü sohbet
seks sohbet
isvec sohbet
sohbet odasi
chat sohbet muhabbet
chat mynet sohbet
almanya sohbet chat
zurna sohbet
sex sohbet
canli sohbet
cet kelebek sohbet
sohbet com
ingilizce sohbet
gay sohbet
cinsel sohbet
mynet odalari sohbet
35 sevgi sohbet
sohbet gen tr
kahkaha sohbet
istanbul sohbet
odasi sohbet turk
chat.tc sohbet
sevgi sohbet
yonca sohbet
makas sohbet
cinsellik sohbet
kraltv sohbet
turkce sohbet
ara sohbet
chat cinsellik sohbet
lesbian sohbet
sohbet cet
chat muhabbet sex sohbet
sohbet et
hotmail.com sohbet
keriz sohbet
izmir sohbet
sohbet sohbet
cam sohbet
islam sohbet
sohbet tr zurna
bayan msn sohbet
sohbet sohbet.com
seviyeli sohbet
sohbet sitesi
yazili sohbet
sohbet ankara
kardelen sohbet
konya sohbet
7 islami kanal sohbet
web cam sohbet
mirc
mırc
mırç
mircturk
mirctürk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mırc indir
mirç indir
mirc yükle
mırc yükle
mirc yukle
mırc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırc turk
mircada
mircturkiye
muhabbet
mirc sohbet
mırc sohbet
mirc chat
mırc chat
mırc ındır
mirc ındır
türkçe mirc
turkce mirc
turkçe mırc
turkce mırc
oper mirc
mirc
mirc indir
mırc indir
mirc inndir
mirc yükle
mırc
türkçe mirc
mirc download
kameralı mirc
kaçak
kaçak script
kelebek
kelebek indir
kelebek script indir
indir
mirc
mirç
mırc
mırç
mircturk
turkmirc
mirc indir
mirc yukle
mirch
mırch
mirc turk
turk mirc
mırcturk
turkmırc
mırc turk
turk mırc
turkiyemirc
türkiyemirc
turkiye mirc
türkiye mirc
mircturkiye
mirctürkiye
mirc turkiye
kelebek sohbet
kelebek mirc
kelebek chat
kelebek script
kelebek sitesi
kelebek cet
kelebek çet
kelebek muhabbet
kelebek
geveze çet
geveze sohbet
geveze chat
Thanks
Thanks you ßy_SuSquN
neon tabela
thank you
neon
thank you
küçük kız seksporno izle bilardo salonunda sex seksene sikiş seksene sikiş izle amca yarak sokan adam EROTİKanime FİLM penis seven kadın vide tül çoraplı seks bağırarak sevişiyor vi büyük sik videosu kadın spermleri izle vajinasını traş ediyor ögretmenle sex yapan k sikiş gen kızlar vidos sarışın penisin ÇİFTLİKTEKİ KIZ SİKİŞİ yaşlı kadınlarda seks eğlenceli sex izle olgun kadın porno film sıcak ve olgun sexi ünlünün poposu er barda erotizm genç kız sikiş video seks dersi veren öğret öğretmenıne veriyo öğretmen öğrencisini otobüste japon kızı si swıger sınıfta öğretmenini si erotik porno seks siki SEKS YAPAN EROTİK KADI halt seks 18 lik manita altmış yaş üzeri seks FULL Yaşlı ve olgun kadınla beyaz kilot şex lezbiyen seksi yalayan japon kız parlak göt parlak popo yaragını yalıyor annesiyle mutfakta sev gögus yalayan kadın çocukla sikişiyo 03 zenci şişman lazb www.seks.porno kola şişesini amına so muhteşem kızlar erotik göhüs videoları sex yapanlar evliler oral sexporn olgun kadın erotik fil öpücem porno film zenci sex. seksene porno film sevişme dersi veren öğ halter orospular sikis sekis filimi yapan yaşlı komşusunu siken komşu kızıyla erotik v esek yaraklı adamlar alo of sex yapay penisle porno sıcak olgun komşu kızıyla beyaz kilotlu ksdın 15 yaşında komşu kızıy sarışın lezbiyenler öp lezbiyen videolar comic porn film nefis kızlar sex porno sıcak sex jigolo arıyan yaşlı ka amını koklatıyor kıçını koklatıyor kafasını kadının amına kafasını kadının amına kafasını kadının götün kafasını kadının kıçın kadın adamın ağzına ve kız adamın ağzına veri kadın domalmış amını k kadın domalmış götünü kadın domalmış kıçını kız adamın ağzına sürt domalmış kadın amını k domalmış kadın götünü domalmış kadın kıçını domalmış kız amını kok domalmış kız götünü ko koklama koklamak koklatıyor hatun amını koklatıyor hatın kıçını yalatıyor kadın amını yalatıyor kız amını yalatıyor karı amını yalatıyor amını yalatan kadınlar amını yalatan hatunlar amını yalatan kızlar amını siktiren kadınla kıçını yalatan kadın olgunların sıcak vıdeo anuel pornolar zenci kadınlar seks koca penisini sokuyor ayakta sex ayakta sikiş ayakta sıcak seks ayakta ayakda ayakda sex ayakda sikiş ayaklda sıcak seks ayakta porno film ayakta erotik film kadını ayakta sikiyor ayakta kadını sikiyor ayakta kadının amına s kadının amını ayakta s ayakta sikişiyorlar ayakta sex yapıyorlar ayata sıcak seks kadını kucagına almış kadını kucagına almış kadını kucagına almış ayakta kadını götünden kadını ayakta amından sex arayan yaşlı kadın sikiş yapan olgun kadı siyah büyük penis anal banyoda domalmış olgun türk fahişeler kadın adamın büyük yar kız adamın büyük yarağ kadın adamın büyük ale kız adamın büyük aleti kadın adamın büyük pen kız adamın büyük penis delice sevişiyorlar delice yalıyor ateşli yalıyor çok ateşli sex çok ateşli sikiş çok ateşli sıcak seks üç zenci bir sarışın g yarak yalıyan kadın sikiş tarifi çişini yapan kadınları yaşlı kadın şişe sokuy çiftlikte tecavüz vide temizlikci kadın yerle temizlikci kız eğilinc temizlikci kız temizli temizlikci kadın temiz temizlikci kadın temiz temizlikci kadın temiz temizlikci kadın temiz temizlikci kız temizli temizlikci kız temizli temizlikci kız temizli temizlikci kız temizli temizlikci kız temizli temizlikci kızın temiz temizlikci kızın temiz temizlikci kadının tem temizlikci kadının tem temizlikci kadının tem temizlikci kadının tem temizlikci kızın temiz temizlikci kızın temiz aletli porna iç çamaşırlı yaşlı kad Arkadaşının annesiyle Arkadaşının annesiyle Arkadaşının annesiyle Arkadaşının annesiyle Arkadaşının annesine t Arkadaşının annesini s komşusunun annesiyle s kankasının annesini si çocuk arkadaşının anne annesiyle grup sex yap arkadaşının annesini s arkadaşının annesiyle arkadaşının annesiyle arkadaşının annesiyle arkadaşının annesini g arkadaşının annesini a arkadaşının annesini o arkadaşının annesine t porno sıcak sex zenci kadın buyuk yara büyük siyah yarak sex am sulu kilot büyük popolar sex film on sekizlik pornocular sexs yapanlar vidyosu koltukta seks doktor hastasını sikiy doktor hemşireyi sikiy doktor hemşireyle siki doktor hemşireyle sex hemşireyi siken doktor doktora veren hemşire hemşire doktora veriyo hemşire doktora kendin gözlüklü hemşire dokto doktorla sevişen hemşi doktor hastanede sikiş doktor hastanede ateşl doktor hastanede sıcak doktor hastanede sikiş dokturuyla sevişen has doktoruyla sikişen has doktoruyla sex yapan h hasta kadın doktoruyla hasta kız doktoruyla s hemşire kız doktorla s hemşire kız doktorla s essek kadını sıker olgun sarışın sks koca yarak fotosu yarak amin icinde ateşli sikişen kadın ateşli sex yapan kadın ateşli sıcak seks çok ateşli sikişiyorla çok ateşli sex yapıyor ateşli sıcak sex ateşli sıcak sikiş ateşli sıcak porno fil ateşli sıcak erotik fi ateş ateş gibi am ateş gibi yarak ateş gibi vajina ateş gibi delik ateş gibi penis ateş gibi alet ateş gibi sik ateşli sevişen kadın ateşli sevişen adam ateşli sikişen adam ateşli sex yapan adam ateşli sex yapan erkek ateşli sex yapan hatun ateşli sikişen hatun ateşli sikişen karı ateşi başına vurmuş ka kadının ateşi başına v ateşim başıma vurmuş ateşi başlarına vurmuş ateşini söndüren kadın ateşini söndüren erkek ateşini söndüren adam ateşini söndüren hatun ateşini söndüren kız ateşli kız ateşli karı ateşli hatun ateşli amcık ateşli amcuk porno seksene lezbiyen sex göğüs por manuel 69 porno sıcak okşatanlar video ovguide sex filmini on lezbiyenler ateşli aml ateşli lezbiyen lezbiyenler ateşli gru lezbiyenler ateşli sev lezbiyen görüntüleri lezbiyen sikişleri lezbiyen seksleri çok ateşli lezbiyenler çok ateşli sıcak lezbi ateşli lez lez sıcak sex lez sex lez sikiş lez sıcak seks lez porno lez erotik film lezbiyenler amcıkların lezbiyenler amlarını o amlarını okşayan lezbi erotik film izle şişma asyalı kızlarda sex vi birezilyalı kadınlar h money olgun sıcak kadın soyunan kadın gizli çe soyunan kadın gizli çe soyunan kadın gizli çe soyunan kadın gizli çe soyunan kadın gizli ka soyunan kadın gizli ka soyunan kadın gizli ka soyunan kadın gizli ka soyunan kadın gizli ka sarışın kadın soyunuyo sarışın kız soyunuyor sarışın hatun soyunuyo sarışın karı soyunuyor kadınlar soyunuyorlar kızlar soyunuyorlar karılar soyunuyorlar soyunan karılar hatunlar soyunuyorlar derste öğretmeniyle se ALO PORNO.COM terörist sikişi balayı pornoları kızkardeşiyle sikişenl porno erotik.net yasak aşk pornoları arap arab koltukta göt sikme geçelik sikiş arap sex arap sikiş arap sıcak seks arab sex arab sıcak seks arap kadınları arap kızları arap hatunlar arap karıları arap kız sikiş arap kız sex arap kız sıcak seks arap kadın sex arap kadın sıcak seks arap porno film arab porno film arap erotik film arab erotik film araplar arablar arap kadınları sikişiy arap kadınları sex yap arap kadınları sıcak s arap kızları sikişiyor arap kızları sex yapıy arap kızları sıcak sek arabic sex arabic sikiş arabic sıcak seks arabic izle seksi araplar seksi arap kadınları seksi arap kızları kapalı sex kapalı sıcak seks arapların seksleri arap dünyası arabistan sex arabistan sikiş arabistan sıcak sex arablar sex arablar sikiş arablar sıcak seks arablar porno film arablar erotik film arab full dvd porno arap sex full dvd porn arablar full dvd porno çinde çocuk sex tahtada sikiyor havuz altında seks gizli vajina yalama vi olgun sıcak vıdeo olgun kadını çocuk sik okşatan kızzlar ORMANDA ÇİŞİNİ YAPARKE Sex Video Türkçe genç deniz altı sex Ara seksi faişe açık seks hikayeleri e kadın oralsex amını traş eden kadın zengin alman çiftlerin giglian porno am dan sikşen büyük gö türkçe teensex muhtesem yasli kadin s sarışın fahişeler bembeyaz amcık dağda porno pornogrup bilardo masasında seks olgun amini tras ediyo verygoodfuck yaslı kad disco erotik öğretmeniyle sex yapan yaşlı kadın sen video seks izle lezbıyen coraplı klı yapay penislerle sikiş grup oral videoları zorla sikiyorlar video manuelsikiş olgun kadın sikiş vide buyuk siklerin got sik kızı ağlatırcasına sik rus çocuk annesini sik anesini siken evli ciftler evli ciftler vebcam se TERORIST SİKİŞ VIDEOLA SEVGİLİSİYLE sevişiyor sex erotice vioları küçük çocuk olgunu kad cıplak dans eden kızla ormanda çişini yaparke lezbiyen sikilş sex yapan genç kızlar genç kızların sikiş vi kücük cocuk yaşlı kadı çoçuk annesini sikiyor rus karıları show balon porno tek gecelik kızların v zenci sex videoları şişman kadınların seks çırakla sex asyalı pornfilm parlak dudaklar oral s evli kadın sex videola striptiz show sex vide eylençeli sikiş polis kızı sikişiyor porno sicak erkek golf oğretmeni s amına yapay peniş soka olgunkadın sıcaık videoları izle kkadın sevişiyor EROTİK DİSCO adama masaj ateşli şişman kadınlar olgun kadın çocuğu sik ponpon kız yeni sınıf kocasının arkadaşıyla koca meme 03 şişman lezbiyen porn zab sex videos sarışın ponpon kız otoparkta zorla sex büyük göggüs sınıfta sarışın koca meme öğretmenle kız sexsi genç kızların şikiliş uzun bacaklı kadınları faişe erkek sex ögrencisini esmer kadın seks video Geline zorla kuaförde Geline zorla kuaförde azgın ve olgun kadın g adam kadının amına şiş olgun kadın çıplak gör yatakta azgın kadın ögretmenle ögrenci sev türk kadın şişman sex okşatan kız olgun kadın seks fi kore zenci sex kızlar manyak sexs yap yaşlı erotik kadın res sandalyede sıcak seviş olgun kadın seks video üniversite sex party a vajinasını yalatan öğretmene kendini affe çinde masajlı sikiş kanepede zenci sikişi sex sikiş izle denizde sevişen kızlar evl kadınların sex vid annesiyle erotik video erotik porno torrie wi çalışırken sikişenler öğretmen öğrencisini d seksi zenci kızlar erkek ile kız sikilş öğretmenle sikişen gen okulda sex sexsi ve eğlenceli sev kendi kocasını aldatıy uyuyan kıza tecavuz süper sevşme evde kart kadin sikisi ASİANSEX SEX35.COM küçük çocuk olgun kadı
tHankS:...!
Post A Comment