Netroots and the Clintons

One of the reasons for this apparent contradiction is that in the cases of the Clintons and Gore, the nascent netroots were standing up for them because they wouldn't do it themselves. This was always a difficult and strange situation, and it became an even more difficult one when the very people who MoveOn et al. had been created to defend turned around and condemned MoveOn et al. as a bunch of out-of-it whackos.

The disconnect was always there, between the DLC and its policy goals and the actual activist base of the Party. It was just made especially strange - and repellent - in the context of the nascent Netroots' forging in the fires of Republican perfidy against the Clintons and Gore.

And of course - Hillary was, and is, still wrong about the war. That, more than anything else, will keep her from the nomination.

> I don't think the implications and
> meaning of this are well understood.

So don't keep us in suspense Matt...

Cranky

Most lefties I know--including me, to the extent that I know myself--weren't pushed into angry action by Clinton's impeachment or Gore's "defeat," largely because we didn't care much for Clinton or Gore or, for that matter, the Democratic Party, which had become almost as plutocratic and moralistic as the GOP. I didn't quite buy Nader's claim that there wasn't a difference between the two parties, but I didn't quite disagree, either. Yeah, I liked Nader. I still do. But Bush, in particular his response to 9-11, proved me wrong--it matters who's president, big-time--so now I'm more of a party guy, and that transistion has been influenced by blogs, which stress the importance of taking back the Democratic Party. In a sense, then, Bush presidency, along with blogs, have made me more moderate, or at least more pragmatic: I care about the Democratic party again, and I want to win.

It makes the 'dirty fucking hippies' thing more interesting, because if there was a dirty-fucking-hippie movement at the time, it was manifested in things like the Seattle WTO protest, which happened slap bang between the impeachment and the 2000 election. Remembering that the gossip-mill had Atrios pegged as Sid Blumenthal provides the right sort of context.

Most lefties I know--including me, to the extent that I know myself--weren't pushed into angry action by Clinton's impeachment or Gore's "defeat," largely because we didn't care much for Clinton or Gore or, for that matter, the Democratic Party, which had become almost as plutocratic and moralistic as the GOP.

Sure, this is no doubt true for a lot of people, especially those inclined to describe themselves as "lefties." Nevertheless, it's the case that many of the founding institutional pillars of the netroots (as detailed above) were founded in defense of Clinton and Gore, and that many of the netroots movement's leading personalities (Atrios, Kos, Stoller, etc.) describe themselves as initially outraged by '98 or 2000.

What Kilgore doesn't realize is that most of us liked Clintonism until Gore's campaign lost and Bush began pursuing extremist policies. At that point, we figured out that the Clintonistas had failed to institutionalize their progress and weren't really interested in doing so because that would involve allowing popular participation in politics and media. It was a popular outrage that really turned on the party in 2002 after the Iraq vote.

Maybe I'm thinking along lines to similar to jdk's. In retrospect, and at least from a certain netroots-influenced perspective, there was and is an odd disconnect between the fierceness of some of the Clintons' *political* reactions to GOP and NYT BS and their willingness to accomodate and compromise with conservatives on the *policy* side of things.

Of course, I realize that someone like Kilgore is going to say the Clintons have the policy views they have because they just sincerely believe those are the right views. And in lots of cases that surely true. (But flag burning, Ed? Flag burning?)

But I think progressives look at so-called centerism and see a grossly counter-productive tendency talk trash about anyone on the left flank. That ends up meaning *both* Lieberman's revolting orgy of finger-wagging about Monica and TNR's support for a really shitty war. The Clintons' deserve a lot of credit for showing progressives how to react to the first sort of crap (think of when we get to see Righteous-Fury-Bill and HRC's peceptive remarks about vast right-wing conspiriacies). But at the same time, they're some the worst perpetrators of the latter sort of crap.

Presto: complicated relationship with the netroots.

I don't see the contradiction. Sure, the Clintons are equivocating, triangulating weasels, but they're OUR equivocating, triangulating weasels. And they're both really damn smart and, at bottom, their hearts are more or less in the right place. We'll defend them when we must and will replace them when we can.

A good case in point right now is the Moonie Times/Insight Mag/Faux News smear of Obama and Hillary. Many on the net roots aren't great fans of either candidate. However, they are still democrats, with some ideas and ideals we support, and we get pissed off with the bullshit. I guarantee that the dirty hippies will be fighting harder blowing back against these smears on Hillary than the DLC, Hillary's big backers.

Stoller: "What Kilgore doesn't realize is that most of us liked Clintonism until Gore's campaign lost and Bush began pursuing extremist policies."

Really? Who's "us."?

For me and people I know, it was other way around; not until Bush came along did I acquire a gruding admiration for Clinton, but then I live in Manhattan and call myself a lefty. In any case, did anyone who knew anything ever think Clinton was good for the party?

a good a time as any to mention the ever-brilliant dailyhowler

Always late to the party, I wasn't interested in "netroots" until a comment I had made on the Dean For America blog got quoted out of context in Newsweek. "Ah-ha," I thought, "that's pretty fishy".

At which point I began finding all of you wonderful bloggers and established orgs like MoveOn and Editor and Publisher. The real story, in my opinion, isn't politics- it's how reality is created by those in power. And how the netroots push back.

That's less of a contrast than you seem to suggest. I dislike Hillary's calculated positions on Iraq, the shrub's war crimes, his other crimes, etc. In short, she has shown very little leadership, and that's not ok in someone who has such visibility and ambition.

That's perfectly consistent with my indignation at the newt republicans' character assasination and lies about the Clintons back in the day. Bill was a good progressive president, and while I hated his triangulating ways even back then, he was still WAY better than what went before. And, of course, any random jerk off the street would be HUGELY better than the dweeb who came after.

In any case, did anyone who knew anything ever think Clinton was good for the party?

I did and still do, but I'm decidedly not a lefty.

People correctly saw the Whitewater/Lewinsky investigation as a stealth coup by the wingnut machine, abetted by a cowed extablishment media.

Defending our country from their depredations was not in any way an endorsement of Clintonism.

To me it means that the broadest motivation was the defense of democracy. I do think that in more minute policy terms most of the energy in the blogosphere is on the slightly leftier side--there are no DLCish wonks as widely cited as Ezra Klein or Dean Baker as far as I can tell. The austerity party (Doug Henwood's phrase--he should be more widely read himself) is never going to win the big blogs over. But the basic point stands. This is a defensive movement. Glenn Greenwald is a good example. He sticks to the brief. You get very little sense of his more particular political views.

David mizner asks: "did anyone who knew anything ever think Clinton was good for the party?"

I would hope not, because even at the time, it was clear that he wasn't good for the party, but only for himself. Between his inadequate responses to the right-wing noise machine and the Paula Jones bimbo eruption, he cost us Congress in 1994, and he was fighting a rearguard action for the remainder of his Presidency.

I don't blame him for doing so in 1995-96, when the GOP had Congress, and his hold on the White House was at risk. But once he got into 1997 (and in 1999, once he got past impeachment), he had the room to articulate a new vision for what the Dems should be about in the late 1990s and into the new century. He didn't - he just continued fighting rearguard actions domestically, and looking for a foreign policy success to count as his 'legacy.'

The result was an era, extending through the 2004 elections, where the GOP had a message, and we didn't - when there didn't appear to be either a set of principles or specific policy goals that Dems were willing to fight for. And that killed us at the polls. It's amazing, in retrospect, that the Dems didn't get crushed any worse than they did.

But I was still outraged, as plenty of other Dems obviously were, when the GOP impeached Clinton in 1998 - especially after the voters rendered their verdict on impeachment in the 1998 midterms, and the GOP went ahead with impeachment anyway. (That should have given us an idea of what we were up against - that the GOP intended to rule however it pleased, forget the voters - but most of us were slow on the uptake.)

Like Stuart Thiel said, "Sure, the Clintons are equivocating, triangulating weasels, but they're OUR equivocating, triangulating weasels...We'll defend them when we must and will replace them when we can."

And that principle holds true right now. Few here in the netroots want Hillary to be our 2008 Presidential candidate. But even now, we'll take up our torches and pitchforks if the press brings back the anything-goes 'Clinton rules' of the 1990s in covering Hillary today.

I would still say the Netroots as constituted today has little to do with the Clintons and mostly to do with the war in Iraq.

Sure there were bloggers before that, and I read them as another source, but much fewer, and with far smaller audiences (as well as no participatory sites like DailyKos).

The whole think took off in the run up to the Iraq war, and the aftermath, and a lot of it had to do with progressives jumping back into the fray when seeing all hell break loose.

A lot of progressives had grown quite skeptical of Bill Clinton, to be honest, in the late 90s and that had fueled a lot of the Nader momentum. There was some sympathy no doubt about Clinton's treatment by the right wing, but still some restlessness in the progressive base.

The Gore election, 9-11 and the Iraq war ended that restlessness for the time being, and you're seeing a concerted progressive movement and outlook united to resist right wing dominance and shenanigans, but at the same time it's really not clear what the future holds for the netroots as constituted now that Congress is in Democratic hands and shortly the president.

I'd really like to see some consistent and reliable progressive campaigning and platforms being pushed by the Democrats, because we should try and get as much done as we can right now while the climate is right, just as the right wing tried to do with their zenith from the 80s forward (interrupted a little bit by Clinton but not really).

I don't think that it was the Daily Howler's purpose to defend either the Clinton/Gore administration or the DLCish policy agenda. I think the DH's purpose was (and is) to expose the idiot narratives that animate the MSM's public discourse, and to challenge liberal pundits and bloggers to fight these idiot narratives.

I agree with this analysis.

I am probably the best example of this political evolution.

In 1994 I was still a believer in the System. When the first Whitewater allegations were prind I though hey maybe there is something to it. And then the hysteria got louder and louder. Somewhere along the way I thought wait a minute this is not about Clinton's real estate deal, this is something else. And then came the Monica Madness. By that time it was clear to me that the Starr witchunt had nothing to do with the rule of law. I saw the Media Establishment working with a corrupt prosecutor to overthrow a legally elected president. I turned against the System. And then 2000 election where it was clear the Establishment despised Gore. And then came Bush v Gore judicial coup. By that time had given up on the MSM and the System and I was getting my news from alternative sources, mainly the Internet. I now consider myself a partisan liberal democrat. I have nothing but contempt for the Establishment.

Re; Clinton/Gore

I admit I have an emotional connection to both. Politically I am not on the same page with Hillary but part of me would love to see her win as a big FUCK YOU to the powers that be that tried to overthrow her husband. I would also love to see Gore run and win. I am a bleeding heart liberal and would love to see justice done to Gore. I don't have that kind of emotional connection to Edwards or Dodd or any other candidate.

So yeah, the Clinton Gore experience was a turning point in my political evolution.

"People correctly saw the Whitewater/Lewinsky investigation as a stealth coup by the wingnut machine, abetted by a cowed extablishment media."

"Defending our country from their depredations was not in any way an endorsement of Clintonism."

This is how I saw it. Whitewater/Lewinsky/Bush v Gore/ It was like an epiphany for me. Wait a minute, this is not about Clinton or Gore, this is much bigger. This is institutional corruption. We have a corrupt press corps, a corrupt supreme court, Democrats are spineless wimps unwilling to fight back.

I see much of US politics through this filter. When I see a smear against Obama or Edwards I look at it through Hillary's VRWC comments.

Today's Time Capsule

Atrios:"I am basically a Clinton Democrat - perhaps more along the lines of how Clinton would have done things as benevolent dictator, or at least with a Dem Congress at his disposal, than how things were run in the 90s, but no flaming progressive."

--Eschaton, May 15, 2002

I have a couple of points to add to this mix. One is that what happened to Clinton over first Whitewater and then Monica was an outrage to people who knew politics because the Republicans threw away all pretense of common interest, civility, even shared nationality. Naked hatred, fear and greed motivated their de facto assassination of Bill Clinton. It was the viciousness and violence of the attacks on Clinton, and their success in the MSM, that made vengeful orphans of the Netroots.

Now, why did they do that? Two reasons. One, Clinton was getting all the credit for prosperity. A little more, and he would have been able to reverse the "red shift" of the Reagan years.

Two: he was engaged in the One America initiative - based on bringing up the question of race all over America in public forums. In other words, he was going to go out and do a healing thing that would dissolve all the wedge issues into national fellow-feeling.

See, when you get into the question of what Presidential leadership really consists of, you have to say that it is not some record of legislative achievement. It is the ability to make the American people feel one way or the other. Reagan did something very successfully. Nobody thinks it was an intellectual achievement. And it's unrealistic to think a successful Democratic President will not have to go out and play He-Man, Jesus, Abe Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt, sometimes all at once.

Whn Kos made his remark about "what did the Marx readers deliver to us" - that is, he's accusing the (intellectual) Sixties hippies of not closing the deal after Watergate, and letting the Republicans take power - I felt really bad. Why did Kos have to go stand on the side of the know-nothings by spitting on a philosopher? OK. I accept that no American politician can admit to having read Marx at this point - although if there's no adult room we can go into to talk about things like philosophy without cockamamie "smackdowns", I don't know what we can hope for. Is the whole history of Western philosophy useless and boring? How about the whole Enlightenment? How about anything the peanut gallery can't understand? There are Kos diaries every day that are closer to the guttural, back-of-the-throat cry of irrationalism than we'd like - and where is our rejection of the fundies, then?

Worse than that, it isn't true, because the first President who was really and truly Swift-boated was Jimmy Carter. Carter was rejected by the Beltway Blowhards and their Broderella society like Clinton. It took collusion for interest rates to go as high as they did under Carter - that couldn't happen today. And the MSM piled on Carter, so when he fell in to the Iran mess, it was the end.

However, the real end of the Sixties wasn't Carter's inability to manage the news cycle. In 1980, in response to Carter's loss of authority (Presidential leadership), the iconic Democrat of the day was ponderously coming to terms with running against him - and then he drove off a bridge. I'm sorry to put it that way, but that was the moment when the baseline American judgments about the two parties were entered for our era: Republicans are tolerable as long as the US doesn't get invaded. Democrats have to be pure as angels. There has hardly BEEN an American President who didn't fool around a little. Clinton stood to make it through his term because he had a great and generous spirit. The Republicans and the MSM had to hammer and hammer until the idea of Clinton having sex in the White House became inescapable.

Once Reagan got in, everybody was happy that he didn't start World War III right away, remember? But that was when they really started with the news cycle management, and with cutting off reporters who wrote things they didn't like. That was when the MSM started to be corrupted in an institutional sense. Clinton getting elected changed things for a while, but the attacks on Clinton started the first MONTH of his term, as "don't ask, don't tell" got blown up into a metaphor for Clinton's dishonesty.

I feel almost unlimited gratitude to Kos, Chris, and Matt for their leadership during the election. I believe their influence was crucial. The thing that bothers me now is that by sort of digging trenches to protect their historical flank, they seem to be trying to bottle and sell what they did in 2006. They want to analyze their own success. And along with maybe an excess of rationality in pure political operation, they seem to lean toward an excess of rationality in policy analysis. As if all we had to do, really, was just stop being Bush, reduce the Republicans to a nuisance party, and get on with fixing things. For choice, against torture, for health care, against war - is that enough? I don't think so. I think that the events of the next few years will remind everybody about the deep emotionality of American politics. George Bush sold ersatz patriotism, we all know that. But real patriotism will be necessary. The challenges the US faces in the next few years, foreign policy and strategic challenges, are HUGE and they have nothing to do with Iraq or Iran or North Korea or even terrorism for that matter. Those are all fake issues.

The office seeks the man and the moment makes history. Some candidates are all about the past - this is clear. Some candidates are all about issues and process - that's clear. Some candidates are ideas whose time is past.

Some candidates show up just in time to ride the whirlwind. The US is in deep deep shit internationally. "Sole superpower" is over, military power has been discounted heavily, our economy is in hock, and it's all going to get worse before it gets better. As good as things look for Democrats now, there are plenty of scenarios in which events cause the people to lose confidence in Democrats AGAIN as in 1980.

It's true that the idealism of the Sixties sort of fell over in 1980. There wasn't a war to galvanize people's feelings anymore, and when Reagan didn't blow things up, we all relaxed.
Now we want to remember not to do that again, certainly. But political operations have to be synched in with a much more high-concept understanding that accepts that we really are not ready for a European style efficient government. We have to pass some sort of electric shock through the body politic so that the metals in the melting pot will alloy at last. We have to do this because of all the things we can't afford - foreign oil, foreign consumer goods, ignoring environmental destruction, etc., etc. - lack of social solidarity is Number One. The very lifeblood of Bush-style fundieism, the wink-wink of the redneck in crowd, I got mine, you go get yours - that will sink us quicker than anything else. It's time to really get up and stand up for our rights and for our national character - that we should start to have some.

The "reality-based community" stands for flipping fundie memes. If you flip the meme at the level of the candidate, then you get a candidate that shatters the old system. I'm afraid that long years in the political trenches have left a lot of us with a taste for blood and a taste for battle, just at the moment when we might be able to catch the express and leave all that shit behind.

"What Kilgore doesn't realize is that most of us liked Clintonism until Gore's campaign lost and Bush began pursuing extremist policies."

I don't know that "liked" is the right word. We tolerated it. I felt it was a necessary step - move to the center to have a voice, and steer the country back where it belonged. But the steering back never happened. As we moved to the center, the Republicans went further right. The "center" moved right, and we kept chasing it.

It wasn't a bad idea, it was just a wrong idea. It was nothing to be ashamed of. Unfortunately, there are those who would rather continue to be wrong rather than admit that they were wrong. Those are the present day DLCers.

Given the common cause at the beginning of the netroots existance, it isn't surprising to see both groups represented in it.

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