The New Charles Lindberg

Oh, excellent, now Jonah Goldberg says I'm Charles Lindberg. Fantastic. See Ezra. I'll cop to not actually knowing anything about the real historical record of Lindberg, but I take the point of the reference to be a not-so-thinly veiled effort to once again call Wesley Clark and myself anti-semites. One noteworthy thing about the way these debates unfold is that people taking the Jonah G. side of these arguments invariably twist people's words around. Look back through this current controversy and you'll see that I don't accuse "the Jews" of having a pernicious influence on anything. If you do want to talk about "the Jews" as a class, we've had a beneficial impact on US foreign policy lately, voting in overwhelming numbers for congressional Democrats, putting Nancy Pelosi in the Speaker's Chair and thereby somewhat restraining Bush's poor national security policies.

The claim is that specific American Jews and the organizations they run and finance have had a pernicious impact on American foreign policy (these guys, say). Lots of Jewish Americans -- Russ Feingold, M.J. Rosenberg, Eric Alterman -- are trying to have a positive impact on American foreign policy.

Comments

Jonah reminds me, somehow, of a serial child molester. There are important differences, of course, but I wouldn't take moral criticism from him too seriously.

Posted by: SomeCallMeTim on January 27, 2007 11:09 AM

I think 'Wanker of the Day' was invented for Goldberg's type of comment.

Posted by: otto on January 27, 2007 11:14 AM

"I take the point of the reference to be a not-so-thinly veiled effort to once again call Wesley Clark and myself anti-semites."

Dude, he links in that paragraph to two other pieces of his writing where he goes out of his way to defend Lindbergh from charges of anti-semitism.

He's accusing you of being an isolationist and an appeaser, not an anti-semite.

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 11:26 AM

He's accusing you of being an isolationist and an appeaser, not an anti-semite.

He specifically cites my point of agreement with Lindberg as being that "Lindbergh believed Jews were pushing American foreign policy in an unhealthy direction, and so does Yglesias and, more significantly, so does Wes Clark." That has nothing to do with isolationism or appeasement and everything to do with anti-semitism.

Posted by: Matthew Yglesias on January 27, 2007 11:31 AM

> He's accusing you of being an isolationist
> and an appeaser, not an anti-semite.

Lindbergh was the most-often mentioned possible candidate for President on the American Fascist Party ticket, so I would have to disagee with you in the context of Goldberg's comment.

If we are talking actual history, it is true that (a) Lindbergh was a complex and troubled person (b) there is some evidence that he was working for the OSS spying on the Nazis during his visits to Germany as early as 1938. But again I wouldn't take Goldberg on good faith here.

Cranky

Posted by: Cranky Observer on January 27, 2007 11:36 AM

Matt, I submit that your recent thoughts remind me of Benedict Arnold's position, except that the facts and circumstances are a bit different between the comparators. I invite you to consider this comparison seriously. We can talk about it, maybe put out a podcast about the subject.

Posted by: DC on January 27, 2007 11:37 AM

You did fly across the Atlantic non-stop that one time, didn't you?

Posted by: John Emerson on January 27, 2007 11:38 AM

Well, I suppose the Jews are alright. So long as they keep disproportionately vote Democratic. Otherwise...

Posted by: DRR on January 27, 2007 11:39 AM

"But again I wouldn't take Goldberg on good faith here."

I'm not taking him on good faith. I'm taking him on the basis of his previously expressed defense of Lindbergh against charges of anti-semitism.

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 11:41 AM

Petey's a Goldberg fan. There's a surprise. From the second link in Goldberg's piece:

But the basic point is that he saw [Jews] as an unmeltable ethnic group for the American melting pot. I think Lindbergh was wrong on several fronts, of course. And -- as Lindbergh biographer A. Scott Berg has argued -- I think one could call him an anti-Semite but only if you define anti-Semitism not as hatred of Jews but as the belief that Jews are "different" or "the other."
If you think Yglesias's point is that Jews are an "unmeltable ethnic group," say it. Goldberg's trying to smear Yglesias and rehabilitate Lindbergh at the same time. It's no different than if he'd said Yglesias reminded him of McCarthy because both were right about some of their claims.

Posted by: SomeCallMeTim on January 27, 2007 11:42 AM

"Petey's a Goldberg fan."

Far from it. I am a big fan of judging a case on the merits, though.

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 11:48 AM

Goldberg's willfull misrepresentation of what MY said is what sort of feaks me out. It's true that people in Goldberg's position invariably twist words in these dust-ups. But that's not an accident. They do it because twisting words--in eactly the way Goldberg does--is a good way to smear people. That's what it's *for*. And it works *really well*.

Posted by: Scott E. on January 27, 2007 11:56 AM

Ezra has a better take on this than Matthew...

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 11:56 AM

I would take an insult from Goldberg as a sign that you're doing good work. Although I wouldn't be satisfied with a mere Lindberg comparison - I think that you should take this as inspiration to work harder. Maybe one day, if you play your cards right, he'll be compairing you to Hitler.

Posted by: justaguy on January 27, 2007 11:56 AM

I've pointed to some language that Goldberg uses in the links you mentioned. You've...well, done nothing. Define how you're using "merits."

Posted by: SomeCallMeTim on January 27, 2007 11:57 AM

"I've pointed to some language that Goldberg uses in the links you mentioned. You've...well, done nothing. Define how you're using "merits."

It's a concept that's quite different than sophistry, SCMT.

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 12:08 PM

So Petey, how many years ago did Matt bite your leg off at sea, leaving you with naught but your ivory peg leg, your sturdy ship, and your unquenchable thirst for vengeance?

Posted by: Christmas on January 27, 2007 12:09 PM

Since a majority of Americans support Israel, and a majority of Americans supported the invasion of Iraq - where is the evidence of disproportionate Jewish influene in any particular direction ?

What about the incredible,world-wide influence of people like Chomsky and Finkelstein in drumming up hatred of Israel ?

Posted by: Ron on January 27, 2007 12:15 PM

That you would compare the influence of a few dissident intellectuals like Chomsky & Finkelstein with the REAL "world-wide" reach of the propaganda arm of the zionist status quo is laughable. That the majority of Americans blindly support any and every action Israel takes against it's neighbors, occupied peoples and even Arabs within Israel should clue you in to the discrepancy.

Posted by: Halvin on January 27, 2007 12:33 PM

It's incredible just how much ado there is about quantifiers. Matthew never uttered a universal statement about "the Jews", and yet Jonah Goldberg shamelessly attributes to him precisely that sort of statement. How Chait can defend Peretz's musings on Muslim culture is incredible after he's so quick to claim that it is antisemitism that motivates a statement by Wesley Clark. In my opinion, Chait is utterly undeserving of the success he's garnered in the aftermath of his brutally wrong prognostications re: Iraq.

Posted by: pedro on January 27, 2007 01:03 PM

We need a new Internet Law, like Godwin's, about threads devolving into I/P slugfests. I would recommend "McManus's Law" but it is too many syllables and I already have 4-5 other versions out there seeking immortality.

There are interesting things to say about the connection between nativism and isolationism but I can't think of any. The America First movement/Party out of Chicago is more interesting the simple anti-semitism/proto-fascism and Golfberg could have compared MY to Norman Thomas to slyly imply Socialism or Gerald Ford to imply blandness. They were members.

Posted by: bob mcmanus on January 27, 2007 01:03 PM

So Petey, how many years ago did Matt bite your leg off at sea, leaving you with naught but your ivory peg leg, your sturdy ship, and your unquenchable thirst for vengeance?

Mention "data points". That was funny watching him crowbar that into everything he said for a few weeks.


Posted by: Ed Marshall on January 27, 2007 01:04 PM

On a more personal level, I feel for Matthew. It isn't pleasant at all to be accused of antipathy towards an ethnic group, no matter how discredited the voices uttering the accusation. Goldberg, at the very least, owes Matthew an apology. Chait owes the rest of us an apology, after his unflinching support of an incompetent administration in the run-up to the war.

Posted by: pedro on January 27, 2007 01:10 PM

I think this discussion really links with Matt's previous post about the failure of Zionism. Myself, I think that Zionism has served its purpose, just as, say, the pioneer myth served its purpose in the U.S. in the 19th century - but that it is now devolving into a malign myth. The idea that Israel represents all of the Jews of the world has been practically negated by the fact that all of the Jews of the world have not, as a matter of fact, moved to Israel. Israel, it turns out, represents Israelis. And it is going to have to figure out what that means.

That's actually good and expected. In the course of any nation's history, there comes a limit. It turns out that Germany didn't represent all the German speaking people, France did not represent all the French speakers, etc.

The final spasms of the end of a nationalist myth, however, are always dangerous. The accusations begin to fly. Hence, this really rather pointless controversy about the fact that one group of wealthy American Jews, among whom is a man who owns a magazine, Marty Peretz - a group that is pretty unrepresentative of the views of most American jews, if polls are correct - are operating in tandem with a group of Israeli politicos, the Netanyahu wing, to promote Israel as a Middle Eastern superpower - which means continuing hostility to Arabs, no compromise on keeping the West bank, and bombing Iran on the model of the bombing of the nuclear plant in Iraq in the early 80s, carried out by ... no surprise ... another rightwing Israeli prime minister.

To say that these pro-Israeli groups are successful is not an insult. In other forums, the pro-Israeli groups actually advertise their success. I can't imagine, say, AIPAC going around begging for contributions with the slogan, give us money and we will fail.

Posted by: roger on January 27, 2007 01:25 PM

Petey, Lindbergh accepted the German Eagle from the hands of Hermann Goering, get back to us when Matt is being photographed kowtowing to an ayatollah.

Posted by: novakant on January 27, 2007 01:50 PM

Reading the Corner reminds me of my college classmates in India who went to Anglo-Indian schools. Always smug and arrogant, but never any indications as to why they deserve to be such.

Posted by: gregor on January 27, 2007 01:58 PM

"Petey, Lindbergh accepted the German Eagle from the hands of Hermann Goering"

I have no opinion as to whether or not Lindbergh was an anti-semite or not. There seems to be a debate with some decent arguments on both sides.

But if Goldberg has repeatedly gone on record as defending Lindbergh from charges that he was an anti-semite, and if Goldberg then accuses Matthew of being like Lindbergh, it really doesn't follow that he was calling Matthew an anti-semite.

I dislike Abe Foxman's use of "you're an anti-semite" without having any defensible rationale. I don't see Matthew's use here of "you're calling me an anti-semite" without having any defensible rationale as being any different. (With the important caveat, of course, that Foxman is a serial offender and Matthew isn't.)

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 02:03 PM

When Wes Clark ran for President it was revealed that he is Jewish. Shouldn't we then refer to him as a self hating Jew rather than an anti semite. Presumably, the same applies to Matthew. It's my impression that you need to be a goy to be called an anti semite.

Posted by: Jonathan on January 27, 2007 02:16 PM

It's a smear. It works the same way as mentioning 9/11 and Saddam Hussein within the same paragraph over and over again, while never expressively linking them. That gets you 85% of the US army believing that a major reason for the war in Iraq was "to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the Sept. 11 attacks." This is how these people work - better get used to it quickly.

Posted by: novakant on January 27, 2007 02:17 PM

Jeez, Petey, you're a more shameless propagandist than Goebbels.

But wait, you shouldn't take offense at that. You haven't heard my theories about how Goebbels wasn't such a bad guy.

Posted by: Antid Oto on January 27, 2007 02:25 PM

When Wes Clark ran for President it was revealed that he is Jewish. Shouldn't we then refer to him as a self hating Jew rather than an anti semite.

Good point. The "anti-semite" slur is reserved for goy who challenge zionist orthodoxy. The correct term for jews who have the temerity to call bullshit on Zionism uber alles is "self-hating jew"

Posted by: Rorschach on January 27, 2007 02:25 PM

Petey,

this seems a bit dicey. The reductio ad absurdum of your argument is: "Goldberg claims MY says x-y-z, just like Ahmadinejad. Goldberg claims Ahmadinejad isn't an anti-semite, he just doesn't like Israel. Ergo, Goldberg has not called MY an anti-semite." Lindbergh is widely understood to be an anti-semite. Therefore, if Goldberg wants to tar MY as an "isolationist" (scare quotes intentional here) but not an anti-semite, he ought to use an analogy with a less inflammatory figure than Lindbergh.

Posted by: HvD on January 27, 2007 02:26 PM

"The reductio ad absurdum of your argument is: "Goldberg claims MY says x-y-z, just like Ahmadinejad. Goldberg claims Ahmadinejad isn't an anti-semite, he just doesn't like Israel. Ergo, Goldberg has not called MY an anti-semite.""

I have a more pertinent reductio ad absurdum: David Duke clearly and repeatedly asserts Hitler to not be an anti-semite. David Duke then refers to Matt as being much like Hitler.

You really can't don't get to Duke calling Matt an anti-semite from that.

Matthew ought to operate under the same intellectual honesty on these matters that we'd all like Abe Foxman to be operating under. The debate would be a hell of a lot more interesting that way.

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 02:41 PM

"Jeez, Petey, you're a more shameless propagandist than Goebbels."

Well, considering that I'm defending the guy I don't agree with on the substance against the guy who I do agree with on the substance, I'd say I'm a pretty piss poor propagandist.

Just maybe, I'm not a propagandist at all...

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 02:47 PM

Just maybe, I'm not a propagandist at all...

Exactly! Now you're starting to understand the real meat of my Goebbels theory.

I did tell you not to get offended, remember?

Posted by: Antid Oto on January 27, 2007 02:52 PM

Jonah Goldberg is as intellectually dishonest a blogger as there is, and shouldn't be taken seriously-his allusion to Lindbergh isn't apt, credible or coherent. Ignore him.

Nonetheless I think that Wes Clark, Matthew and Ezra are treading very unsteadily with the manner in which they're framing this argument.

The main issue is that that the neoconservatives and Weekly Standard folks are such poor representatives of the American Jewsish populace as a whole. Over three quarters of the Jewish population regularly vote Democratic. Jews remain the most unabashedly liberal group in the country. Count the number of Jewish Democrats in Congress compared to Republicans and Connecticut Independents for Lieberman. I think Wesley Clark and Matthew would be best served to focus on this key point when discussing this issue, instead of trying to assert some pernicious and overwhleming influence of a cabal of well-placed Jews-there are many unsavoury organizations and individuals exerting influence on the Bush administration regarding Iran, and many of them aren't Jewish.

To be fair, Matt does allude to the point of poor representation somewhat, but he would be even better served to push it to front and further show just how many more American Jews agree with Matt Yglesias, Ezra Klein, Eric Alterman, Rick Perlstein, etc, etc, etc, rather than Marty Peretz and Jonah Goldberg. This way, perhaps we can shift the conversation to how hideously unrepresentative and disproportionately influential AIPAC is, and affect some real change in that regard.

Posted by: Craig on January 27, 2007 02:55 PM

Malted milk face (Jonah G.) and all his little fart acolytes are increasingly irrelevant. This onetime Israeli paratrooper) said a great thing: "The hunt for 'anti-Semites' is a hunt for pockets of resistance to the New World Order- like Nazis going house to house." Remember when David Brooks (and a thousand like him) became all in hysterics at the growing use of the word "neocon"? It was "an anti-Semitic conspiracy of epic proportions!" Well, enough people laughed that out of the park that now you can say "NEOCON" all you like and musty old David Brooks can piss in his J. Press knickers. A zionazi shill calling you "Lindbergh" is just an overfed infant' s gaseous emittance.


Posted by: Trevor on January 27, 2007 02:56 PM

"I did tell you not to get offended, remember?"

You'll have to become several notches smarter, and become a whole lot better of a writer to offend me, if that is, indeed, your prime objective.

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 02:57 PM

You really can't don't get to Duke calling Matt an anti-semite from that.

You lost me here. Perhaps we might get somewhere if I try to restate my argument:

1. Do you think Charles Lindbergh is held, by the average reader of politcal blogs, to be an anti-semite?

2. Why do you think Goldberg is comparing MY to Lindbergh, as opposed to some other prominent isolationist?

Posted by: HvD on January 27, 2007 03:04 PM

Interesting that you brought up sophistry early in this thread Petey. You seem to haven given yourself ideas.

Matt, your doing good work here. Keep it up. These attacks simply prove that you are being heard. Also, you have to be feeling a little bit like Lester Freemon about now. As Kima might say, "fuck em where they live."

Posted by: Pooh on January 27, 2007 03:04 PM

I think Wesley Clark and Matthew would be best served to focus on this key point when discussing this issue, instead of trying to assert some pernicious and overwhleming influence of a cabal of well-placed Jews-

Uh, Hilliard, McKinney...

If you want to do a time warp, once upon a time Jesse Helms made Arafat sound like a moderate on Israel. Supposedly (these are the words of Roy Cohn, not mine) "New York Israel money" was going to bury him in a general election. Roy set up a meeting, they gave Jesse the money instead and suddenly he made Sharon sound like a moderate.


Posted by: Ed Marshall on January 27, 2007 03:10 PM

"Interesting that you brought up sophistry early in this thread Petey. You seem to haven given yourself ideas."

While I could certainly be missing something, best I can tell is that I've avoided sophistry like the plague here.

My concern is a admittedly a rather limited one, while everyone else here is interested in far broader concerns. My limited concern is that I think Matthew is claiming the banner of "being called an anti-semite" when the facts at hand don't support that.

It would be sophistry were I try to use and stretch that limited concern into a larger attack on Matthew's overall substantive position - which is certainly not something I'm trying to do, nor is it something I would want to do.

So how am I being a sophist?

Posted by: Petey on January 27, 2007 03:14 PM

FWIW, I sent this message to Mr. Goldberg:

Dear Jonah,

While you're enjoying your gathering of the like-minded and beleaguered, please be assured that your attempt at drive-by character assassination got some attention from the rest of us. I'm most impressed by the ostensible claim that Matthew Yglesias "shouldn't take too much offense" at the comparison you drew. In your line of work, I suppose that counts as a nice touch.

Here's my question: Would you say your slur against Yglesias is as "impeccably researched and persuasively argued" as your forthcoming volume? I know I only have the blurb to go by -- and I'm sure it can't do justice to your "surprising and enlightening research" -- but the cut of the cloth sure seems to match.

One more question, for later on: Is it worth the royalties and "rousing cheers from the Right," when it exposes you as a complete laughingstock among everyone else? With the experiences you have to look forward to, I think your treatment by Adrian Wooldridge is going to seem unduly respectful.

Sincerely, . . .

Posted by: nandrews3 on January 27, 2007 03:19 PM

Petey:

My attempts at irony seem to have been too stupid and ill-written for your advanced mind to grasp. I really did mean you no more offense than Jonah meant Matt.

Posted by: Antid Oto on January 27, 2007 03:31 PM

Is this the same Jonah Goldberg who has a book out comparing FDR and Hillary Clinton to Hitler and Mussollini?

Posted by: DonB on January 27, 2007 04:22 PM

Yep, that Jonah Goldberg once again proves himself to be a real goyische kopf...

Posted by: RKU on January 27, 2007 05:23 PM

Isn't it kind of extraordinary, when you think about it, that Ygleias has two such loyal and ideologically- well-defined trolls as Al and Petey? Al is always there to give the Republican talking points, Petey is always there to give the mushy conventional-wisdom TPs, and both of them always make MY look better by comparison. IS this like a service you can sign up for or something?

(Petey: Of course Jonah is calling Matt an anti-semite. When you compare someone to a famous anti-semite, on the specific basis of their similar beliefs about the Jews, what else could you possibly be doing?)

Posted by: lemuel pitkin on January 27, 2007 05:53 PM

Matt,

The point of these attacks on you is not to use logic to out-argue you. The point is to make an example of you so others won't follow your lead. The stupider the slurs you endure, the more the point gets across that this isn't a matter of rationality and evidence, but instead a matter of raw power and passion, and that you are on the side dangerously lacking in both.

Posted by: Steve Sailer on January 27, 2007 05:53 PM

There's a key endorsement.

Posted by: DRR on January 27, 2007 06:04 PM

Bob M--"We need a new Internet law, like Godwin's, about threads devolving into I/P slugfests"


Actually, we don't, if I understand you correctly. It sounds like you disapprove of I/P slugfests. Crooked Timber has a rule like that and it's absurd. All sorts of subjects lead to slugfests, so why single out the I/P conflict as one that is particularly poisonous?

My own theory--in the US, at least, the sordid facts about Israel's history (though, I hasten to add, no more sordid than those of any other country) are mostly relegated to books and obscure leftwing rags, so when people start arguing about all this in threads (splitting the pro-Israel liberals from the pro-Palestinian ones), it makes some people uncomfortable.

I say we ban all topics that lead to slugfests. We can talk about the weather, so long as it doesn't segue into a discussion of global warming.

Posted by: Donald Johnson on January 27, 2007 06:11 PM

I screwed up my Roy Cohn story a bit. It wasn't Cohn's words but Sidney Zions and it wasn't "New York Israel money" it was "some of the richest Jews in New York" (which makes Clark sound like a diplomat). Helms didn't get the money, instead his opponent didn't get it, it went to a cancer treatment Cohn liked but the quid pro quo stood.

Posted by: Ed Marshall on January 27, 2007 06:19 PM

Will Goldberg wind up like whoever that hack was who debated Frank Zappa about music censorship?

I don't see any reason to believe that he'll have any particular influence in the non-echo chamber world. His variety of "movement conservatism" seems to have seen its day.

All he knows how to do is smear and attack. He doesn't actually defend much of anything. He hasn't even been able to finish his, what, two year overdue book about why Hillary = Hitler.

Will Goldberg be a more important figure on the right than Ann Coulter or Tom Delay in a few years?

Posted by: Bob bobstein on January 27, 2007 06:26 PM

My own theory--in the US, at least, the sordid facts about Israel's history (though, I hasten to add, no more sordid than those of any other country) are mostly relegated to books and obscure leftwing rags, so when people start arguing about all this in threads (splitting the pro-Israel liberals from the pro-Palestinian ones), it makes some people uncomfortable.

I don't think it holds up. You can set up the left to fight on a number of subjects but none of them get shooed off into the corner quite like Palestine vs. Israel.

Posted by: Ed Marshall on January 27, 2007 07:02 PM

Well, admittedly, my theory is incomplete. Why does it make people uncomfortable? In part because some on the pro-Israel side are inclined to accuse Israel-critics of antisemitism as a way of discrediting the criticism. And in part because the subject also attracts genuine antisemites. So between those two effects, a lot of liberals would prefer to avoid the subject altogether.

Or anyway, that's my guess. I think it's at least partly right, but maybe there are other factors.

Posted by: Donald Johnson on January 27, 2007 07:20 PM

After Lindbergh met Hitler he was very impressed and said- "The guy knew more about aviation than any politician I ever met." So, for Malted Milk to really tag you as the new Lindbergh, you'd have to fly to Teheran- break bread with Ahmadinijead and say- "Man, that guy knew more about Arenas and the Caps than any slob I ever met in D.C."

Posted by: Trevor on January 27, 2007 07:21 PM

We need a new Internet Law, like Godwin's, about threads devolving into I/P slugfests. I would recommend "McManus's Law" but it is too many syllables and I already have 4-5 other versions out there seeking immortality.

"boblaw"?

Posted by: djw on January 27, 2007 07:31 PM

And you tried so hard to distinguish between the rank-and-file majority of Jews who remain liberal and the small but well-funded neocon groups pushing us to war with Iran! Did you anticipate that your subtle distinction would go clear over their heads?

Posted by: Benjamin on January 27, 2007 07:38 PM

You link to a ZOA article where Mortimer Zuckerman was praised. Now I knew that Mort was probably right of center, but I'd grown kind of fond of him on the McLaughlin show. I wouldn't quite call him an evil neocon. He seems to have some humanistic qualities! :-)

Posted by: Benjamin on January 27, 2007 07:43 PM

Washington, Hamilton, and Madison foresaw the present day clearly in Washington's Farewell Address:

"So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld;"

Now, here's where it gets really good:

"and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation....

"Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial, else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people to surrender their interests."

But, obviously, I'm an America-hating anti-American for quoting Washington's Farewell Address. Indeed, George Washington was an anti-American for saying this.

Posted by: Steve Sailer on January 27, 2007 07:52 PM

Matt's been attacked by the dude who wrote

ATTN: SUPERDOME RESIDENTS [Jonah Goldberg]
I think it's time to face facts. That place is going to be a Mad Max/thunderdome Waterworld/Lord of the Flies horror show within the next few hours. My advice is to prepare yourself now. Hoard weapons, grow gills and learn to communicate with serpents. While you're working on that, find the biggest guy you can and when he's not expecting it beat him senseless. Gather young fighters around you and tell the womenfolk you will feed and protect any female who agrees to participate without question in your plans to repopulate the earth with a race of gilled-supermen. It's never too soon to be prepared.

Posted by: P O'Neill on January 27, 2007 08:05 PM

Sorry. I meant the Wizards, not the "Caps"- all I follow is MLB now. Used to play a lot of it- Univ. of Florida+...


Posted by: Trevor Dawson on January 27, 2007 08:16 PM

Cranky Observer,

Though I'd like to believe Lucky Lindy was secretly working for OSS when he visited Hitler in 1938, The Office of Strategic Services wasn't established until 1942.

Also, Matt what's with spelling Lindbergh without the "h" (are you just making the point it rhythmes with Goldberg)?

Finallly, regardless of Lindbergh's personal biases against Jews (and this is a time when even many liberal politicians were supportive of racist Jim Crow laws), the America First Committee he spoke for was hardly an extremist organization comprised of mindless losers. Considering that the public never supported declaring war on Germany, Lindbergh and the AFC probably represented where most of the country was politically (we didn't go to war with Germany until Hitler rather stupidly declared war on us after Pearl Harbor).

Sure some AFC members were anti-semitic (Father Coughlin for one) but others were mainstream, reasonable people and were (or went on to be) national leaders, including three presidents-- Hoover, Kennedy and Ford.
http://www.nndb.com/org/039/000057865/

Posted by: beowulf on January 27, 2007 08:29 PM

As it happens, Steve Sailer, who seems to be becoming a regular here, wrote similar claptrap about the Katrina victims, the only difference being that his prose is wrapped in a fog of pseudo-scientific, racist bs.

Posted by: novakant on January 27, 2007 08:34 PM

ahh sorry, rhymes not rhythmes :o)

Posted by: beowulf on January 27, 2007 08:54 PM

Matt, how can we believe that you're writing in good faith when you say that the head of the ADL accused Clark of anti-Semitism, without mentioning that he also said "we know [Clark]...is not an anti-Semite."

And why do you write that the ADL wants to "lock me up"? I realize this is hyperbole, but your basic point seems to be that the ADL's criticism is illegitimate. So, as I see it, you're distorting the ADL's criticism, in order to delegitimize it, which is beneath you.

More specifically, the ADL leader was reported as saying:

The ADL leader told Clark that he had "bought into conspiratorial bigotry ... While we know [Clark] is a good friend of Israel and is not an anti-Semite, he still engaged in inappropriate language by talking about how Israel and Jewish money will move this country to war on Iran."

Which Matt translated as:

Needless to say, the increasingly ridiculous Abe Foxman, head of the Anti-Defamation League, was swiftly located in order to ply his trademark tactic of accusing people of anti-Semitism that he knows perfectly well aren't anti-Semites.

Posted by: Ragout on January 28, 2007 01:27 AM

By the way, how exactly does the Zionist Organization of America have a "pernicious impact on American foreign policy"? Matt doesn't bother to criticize any of their positions. I guess it's enough to just note that their organization's name includes the word "Zionist."

Posted by: Ragout on January 28, 2007 01:53 AM

Links, Ragout? AFAIK, you're making this up out of whole cloth. Links would clear that up.

Posted by: SomeCallMeTim on January 28, 2007 02:10 AM

"As it happens, Steve Sailer, who seems to be becoming a regular here, wrote similar claptrap about the Katrina victims, the only difference being that his prose is wrapped in a fog of pseudo-scientific, racist bs."

Not true. Goldberg made gleeful jokes about people dying. Sailer never does hateful, vicious stuff like that. He does claim that blacks on average have inferior intelligence and we should take this into account in social organization while at the same time respecting individuality and rights. This is different. Sailer is a racist well-meaning liberal, which is such a contradictory combination that it causes peoples brains to explode.

Posted by: MQ on January 28, 2007 03:32 AM

Just an historical note on Lindbergh -- denied a commission in the Army
Air Force because of his prewar opposition, he nonetheless flew combat
missions with the Marines and Army Air Force in the Pacific. See, Tillman,
Corsair: The F4U in World War II and Korea (Naval Institute Press, 1979), pp. 68-70.

Posted by: steve on January 28, 2007 06:56 AM

matt,

with all due respect, you should brush up a little on your lindbergh..it sure doesn't sound like he's calling you an anti-semite

Posted by: joe preston on January 28, 2007 11:28 AM

Links, I got links.

Here's Abe Foxman of the ADL criticizing Wes Clark, but adding that Clark "not an anti-Semite."

Here's Matt reporting Foxman's statement as "accusing [Clark] of anti-Semitism."

Note that the first link is straight from Yglesias' article. I didn't think that Matt was an Instapundit-style blogger whose links actually demonstrate the opposite of what was originally blogged. But I guess on the subject of Israel...

Posted by: Ragout on January 28, 2007 11:08 PM

For future reference can you tell me what the point of "He's not an anti-semite but he's saying the same thing as David Duke" is supposed to mean? What exactly are they accusing him of if not anti-semitism?

Posted by: Ed Marshall on January 28, 2007 11:12 PM

I don't think the link to the newspaper shows what you think it shows. The paragraph in full:

“While we know [Clark] is a good friend of Israel and is not an anti-Semite, he still engaged in inappropriate language by talking about how Israel and Jewish money will move this country to war on Iran,” Foxman said. “At a time when Jews are being accused of bringing about the war in Iraq, that’s very disturbing. We know this is not the real Clark — but he said it. We’re worried because these ideas seem to be moving into the mainstream. It’s not just David Duke anymore.”
That looks a lot like Foxman is saying, "The claim is anti-semitic, but we know Clark didn't mean it, so he's not an anti-semite." The implication is that if he meant it--if it was the real Clark--then he's an anti-semite. That seems to be precisely the position against which MY is arguing. I'm not sure Yglesias's the one engaging in Glen-like behavior.

Posted by: SomeCallMeTim on January 28, 2007 11:30 PM

Ed Marshall & SomeCallMeTim,

I think you're misreading Foxman's statement. He's saying that on sensitive subjects, you ought to speak more carefully than Clark did, or you end up sounding like you endorse anti-Semitic views.

Be that as it may, my original criticism was that Matt didn't report that Foxman said that Clark is not an anti-Semite. It's hardly intellectually honest to leave that key fact out, when you're accusing someone of making unfair accusations.

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Posted by: Kadın Sağlık on June 1, 2009 11:58 AM

So I think the mockery is badly misplaced. And this last critique is just silly. Matt writes: "The trouble, obviously, is that were Friedman to acknowledge that Bush won't, say, hold a regional peace conference, he'd have to admit that the right thing to do in Iraq is withdraw."

But, of course, Friedman has said just that:

At the end of November he wrote:
"Either we just get out of Iraq in a phased withdrawal over 10 months, and try to stabilize it some other way, or we accept the fact that the only way it will not be a failed state is if we start over and rebuild it from the ground up, which would take 10 years. This would require reinvading Iraq, with at least 150,000 more troops"

In other words, a call for a phased withdrawal over 10 months and a call to try to stabilize in Iraq in other ways.

And then last week in his first column after surge speech, he wrote:
"You need to tell Iraqis that by calling for a surge in troops you’re giving them one last chance to reconcile, otherwise we’re gone by Dec. 1." followed by today's column calling for an effort to "Let the troop surge be accompanied and reinforced by what the Baker-Hamilton commission proposed: a regional conference that puts Syria, Iran, Jordan and Saudi Arabia around a table with Iraqis to try to stabilize the place."

Posted by: rent a car on June 7, 2009 09:43 AM

tHankS

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