Barack Obama, War Supporter?

I'm kind of surprised they would even take this tack. If Clinton was right to vote for the war, how does it really land a punch on Obama to say he was for it, too? And if Obama was wrong to be for it, how was it right for Clinton? It just doesn't even make sense as a line of attack.

I used to feel kindly disposed towards HRC as a person, and primarily worried that her run would end in failure and so help the republican machine. In a better world, that is, I would have supported her.

Well, i'm getting to hate her more and more. cause of shit like this.

It's too much like what her hubby did--build your own brand by trashing every other democrat.

count me another middle-of-the-road liberal who is turning against hrc

It's too much like what her hubby did--build your own brand by trashing every other democrat.

But without the charisma.

As I wrote in my too-horrible-for-contemplation article about Obama, "His opposition in 2002 to invading Iraq was sensible and forcibly stated." I don't think the same can be said for Hillary, although I know far less about her.

Strategically, Bill C must be thinking, "Whoever runs, the race comes down to Hillary and Not Hillary. It's Hillary's to lose. So if we blur the distinction between my wife and the current Not Hillary Number One on the biggest sore point the base has with her, the race becomes Hillary versus More or Less Hillary. And Hillary wins that one every time."

What Bill Clinton says in a private discussion with friends that gets leaked to the media is, while not sacrosanct, certainly not an attempt to influence the public in some well-organized PR offensive.

Obviously he was wrong here, but he was just complaining at how it feels like the media treats HRC to a double standard. Which you know what? I think we can all agree with that. And if they were doing that to my spouse, I'd bitch and moan about it too.

But then, I feel the way HRC gets treated by the media is a bug, not a feature, and another reason not to nominate her.

What Bill Clinton says in a private discussion with friends that gets leaked to the media is, while not sacrosanct, certainly not an attempt to influence the public in some well-organized PR offensive

Don't believe that anymore. (Not a Clinton-specific lack of belief.)

What Bill Clinton says in a private discussion with friends that gets leaked to the media is, while not sacrosanct, certainly not an attempt to influence the public in some well-organized PR offensive.

You forgot the winkie icon.

I think Jim Henley's right about the motivation: blurring differences to the point where people figure they might as well go with name recognition.

But about that name recognition: is Hillary known for anything good? She took her public cuckolding with dignity, but aside from that, everything she's known for makes me shudder--and I'm a liberal.

Well, I don't think much of HRC, but I do think Clinton's criticism of Obama has considerable merit.

Remember, by Summer 2004, the Iraq War had already proven itself a gigantic, colossal disaster. Only a candidate/campaign as incompetent as Kerry could manage to lose in that environment. And in 2002, Obama was still a local Chicago politician, with a very liberal political base, perhaps considering a run in a Democratic Senate primary. Political expediency is just as plausible an explanation as wisdom or conviction.
th
But now that he's gotten into the political big-leagues, there seems an awful lot of evidence he's completely shifted ground on the Mid East. Iran. AIPAC. The Palestinians. Expediency now points in a different direction.

My very strong suspicion is that if Obama had been in the Senate in 2002, he would have followed the herd of all those other prominent democrats, and voted for war in order to maintain his national security "credibility."

What can I say? The DC Democrats are mostly worthless, Obama probably among them.

Political expediency is just as plausible an explanation as wisdom or conviction.

Give me a break. The machine candidate, Dan Hynes, supported the war in Iraq. An experienced politician who was looking ahead for advantage. Which suggests to me that the conventional wisdom at the time was that support for the war was a plus in the Senate race.

More and more Hillary's campaign (and her advisors/pollsters) are resembling something cut from the same cloth as Rove's fullsome drawers.

The continual 'refinements' in her positions, the weasle words, the half-truths and no-truths said about her opponents, etc. are triangulation and rat-fucks written in the language of the GOP.

I'm about to say, no way Hillary, even if she is nominated.

Like Matt, I don't blame the Clintons for complaining that the press has given them a raw deal. In fact, I'm surprised this is even a story, given the press's track record with Billary.

But I think this all highlights a major point that Bill may be trying to get across: Hillary, even though she voted for Bush's ability to start the war, would not have herself started the war. That's why he's talking about a double standard.

Bill knows as well as all of us that, in 2002, if you didn't vote for the war, you were seen (wrongly) as weak on homeland security. Bill sees that Hillary was in a position where she had to vote for that war. Obama was not in that position, as he was not running for national office at the time.

So my point is, while Bill is implying Obama supported the war, what he's really saying is: Though Hillary voted for the war, Hillary didn't support its being waged.

I think we can all rest easy (JimPortlandOR!) that if Obama OR Hillary is elected, we're not going to get into a similar mess. At least not one of this caliber of idiocy.

I'm not sure if everyone has read the actual quoted from the source of Clinton' chat...he wasn't beefing because the Times knew Obama was a war supporter and wasn't telling it...his beef was full disclosure or the lack of it when comparing HRC with Obama in regards to their votes. Obama didn't have access to the cooked intel happily provided to the intell commitee HRC was on...therefore he couldn't possibly make an 'informed' re:misled, decision. Then she and big O are compared on the war stance as though they both had the same vantage point. The Times never say it, although the misleading info is about as important as you can be because it worked...and BC's complaining about it has also worked. Who knew Obama said this before BC brought it up or at least was talking about it in the correct context? He's still sharp. Others, not so much. The greatest thing about the left blogosphere is the desire to fact check, background check, dig deep...weakness-letting go of biases...that's just human. peace in the middle..

Am I the only one way tired of cheesy politicians and their stooges claiming that they were "misled" into voting for war authorization?
Either they were too stupid to notice the real world information readily available to us all (who you gonna believe, El Baradei or Condi?) or they were willing to sacrifice what few principals they might have retained for political advantage. Yes MY, this applies to you as well.
Their mistake was believing the cakewalk hype, that it would all be over in 12 months, with victory parades on main street, oil and Israel secure. They lost that bad bet.
So now Bill wants to defend HRC's record from "unfair" attack? Lots of luck.
Because he must answer this simple question: was she lying then or is she lying now?
And PS Bill Clinton doesn't make a complaint about the NYTimes to a room full of supporters with the expectation that it will remain off record. Sheesh, the Clintonistas like the Bushies only get more desperate and delusional.

There were innumerable reasons in the public domain not to support Bush's War. If HRC didn't want to support the war, she could have utilized her staff, committee staff, contacts in Britain and Europe, or Bob Graham to learn more.

Sen. Clinton voted for the war because she thought that was the correct political play. Now she wants to be anti-war because that is the correct play. I supported her when she ran for the Senate the first time because she was a Dem and I was happy that she took the concerns of upstate seriously. I do not know however if she has any real convictions.

Clinton's political progression:
1992 bungles healthcare, 2002 botches the war vote, 2012 invades the wrong country

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/02/26/opinion/26herbert.html

February 26, 2007

Mud, Dust, Whatever
By BOB HERBERT

If Bill and Hillary Clinton were the stars of a reality TV show, it would be a weekly series called "The Connivers." The Clintons, the most powerful of power couples, are always scheming at something, and they're good at it.

Their latest project is to contrive ways to knock Barack Obama off his white horse and muddy him up a little. A lot, actually.

Most of the analyses after last week's dust-up over David Geffen's comments to Maureen Dowd have focused on whether the Clintons succeeded in tarnishing the junior senator from Illinois. What I found interesting was that no one questioned whether the Clintons would be willing to get down in the muck and start flinging it around. That was a given.

When Senator Obama talks about bringing a new kind of politics to the national scene, he's talking about something that would differ radically from the relentlessly vicious, sleazy, mendacious politics that have plagued the country throughout the Bush-Clinton years....

Hillary Clinton supported the war before tha war, supported occupation before the occupation, supported the occupation these last 4 years and wishes to occupy Iraq forever more. A $2 trillion immoral wate of resources will be more and more and more with Clinton. More death, more woundings. This is dispiccable. A dispiccable person. I will never ever vote for such a person.

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/opinion/04rich.html

March 4, 2007

Bring Back the Politics of Personal Destruction
By FRANK RICH

The issue is not that Mrs. Clinton voted for the war authorization in 2002 or that she refuses to call it a mistake in 2007. Those are footnotes. The larger issue is judgment, then and now. Take her most persistent current formulation on Iraq: "Obviously, if we knew then what we know now, there wouldn't have been a vote and I certainly wouldn't have voted that way." It's fair to ask: Knew what then? Not everyone was so easily misled by the White House's manipulated intelligence and propaganda campaign. Some of her fellow leaders in Washington — not just Mr. Obama out in Illinois, not just Al Gore out of power — knew plenty in the fall of 2002. Why didn't she?

Bob Graham, then Senate Intelligence Committee chairman, was publicly and privately questioning the W.M.D. intelligence. So was Nancy Pelosi. Chuck Hagel warned that the war was understaffed, that an Iraq distraction might cause Afghanistan "to go down again" and that the toppling of Saddam could be followed by chaos. Joe Biden convened hearings to warn of the perils of an ill-planned post-Saddam Iraq.

Some of these politicians ended up voting to authorize war exactly as Mrs. Clinton did (Senators Hagel and Biden). Some didn't. But all of them — and there were others as well — asked tougher questions and exerted more leadership. John Edwards, by the way, did not....

Another fair question is what Mrs. Clinton learned once the war began. Even in the summer of 2003 — after the insurgency had started, after the W.M.D. had failed to materialize, after the White House had retracted the president's 16 words about "uranium from Africa," more than two months after "Mission Accomplished" had failed to end major combat operations — she phoned a reporter at The Daily News, James Gordon Meek, to reiterate that she still had no second thoughts about the war....

If only there were some sort of video from 2002 that showed Obama actually saying he would have voted against the bill, and at the same time anticipating a prolonged insurgency and civil war...... Oh wait!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sXzmXy226po

Incidentally, Obama's campaign people should just cut bits from this interview, with the date in big bold font at the top, and run it unedited as a campaign commercial.

BChurch, thank you so much. Hillary Clinton has chosen the remembrance of these 4 destructive and wasteful years of war and occupation to betray those who wish to end the occupation, to tell us a $2 trillion war and occupation will continue through a Clinton presidency, and to have Bill Clinton slash falsely at Barack Obama. Enough of the Clinton destructiveness.

".. sounds to me a lot like an anti-war Senate candidate trying to avoid starting some beef with his party's presidential ticket and not at all like Barack Obama expressing support for the war

Man, the right-wing media has done a great job of making even liberals use the term "anti-war" to label anyone who opposes this idiotic Iraq action we're stuck in. We need a campaign to make the distinction between those who oppose war in general in all cases, and those who oppose stupid, ham-handed, obtusely executed wars like the one we're in. How about "anti-stupid war?" Not very catchy, but it's a start.

What I think the former President was attempting was to get MSN to get off their GOP-inspired scripts (also, admittedly, helping his wife), and hold all candidates to essentially the same standards and levels of scrutiny.

Unless they are forced to do so now, they won't do so in the 2008, post-convention, campaign.

What I don't want to experience is a repeat of the 2000 and 2004 campaign coverage: Gore was an earth-toned, inauthentic, deep-sighing fibber; Kerry was a French-looking, opportunistic flip-flopper.

Right now their script appears to be that Hillary is a calculating, faux-drawling, automaton bitch; Barrack is an inexperienced, distant, racially confused, Liberal loner.

Makes work so much easier for the Candi Crowley's of Mediadom, but doesn’t help the prospective voter in the least.

OT,

I wrote this post on the CIA which you may find interesting. Substantially edited version of what I wrote yesterday.

Matthew:
Great point about the election context for the Obama quote cited by the Clinton's! I saw the quote on C-Span one day (I think it was the Saturday Obama announced) with Mike Allen (?) from Time and Politico. It was clear that Allen had not seen (or read) the clip before, but was drooling thinking about how he might use it (he wrote an article on the coming dirt on Obama). It is good that the issue is being dealt with now!
Keep up the great work!

"Anti-war" is a perfectly honorable term. War is a fucked up way to go about a nation's business. You can be "anti-war" without being opposed to every possible war ever, just like you can be "anti-trespassing" and still break into someone's unoccupied cabin the one time you're at risk of dying of exposure while lost in the woods.

In particular it is very very very fucked up to somehow be starting a war every few years, as the United States has been doing since Grenada, depending on how you count them. If you stop for just a second and look around, you will see that no other country on Earth does this.

"Anti-war" is a perfectly honorable term. War is a fucked up way to go about a nation's business"

To you, that may be true, but I think the public at large associates the term with dirty hippies who will refuse to defend the country under any circumstances.

To you, that may be true, but I think the public at large associates the term with dirty hippies who will refuse to defend the country under any circumstances.

Since it wasn't always that way, and isn't that way everywhere, that's something people with actual political guts ought to be able to change. That means not cringing in fear from the term.

Some of the kids around here may not remember that there was a time back in the 60s and 70s when "conservative" was as dirty a word as "liberal" became since the 1980s. Conservatives did not change that by running from the word. Quite the opposite.

Now the Clintons are not the people to rehabilitate "anti-war" as a term, not so much because Bill and Hill lack political courage - though that seems a charge that sticks to her pretty well - but because they genuinely like running a warlike country. They just want to run a warlike country somewhat more dextrously than Royal Family B: The Next Generation has done.

I agree with Del Capslock. Trying to rehabilitate "anti-war" is a loser, at least over the short term. We are at least a mildly warlike country, and "anti-war" suggests, rightly or wrongly, a lack of judgment defined by an inability to consider a legitimate option (i.e., war).

So just to clarify, it's the majority position in this thread that so long as a war isn't "stupid, ham-handed, [and] obtusely executed," it's a "legitimate option." Walks like a duck; quacks like a duck: the consensus here is that warfare is okay even if not an act of clear self-defense? That it's fine to invade and bomb other countries from time to time because, hell, that might just be the most expeditious way to get the results you're looking for?

Arthur Silber is right about you people.

So just to clarify, it's the majority position in this thread that so long as a war isn't "stupid, ham-handed, [and] obtusely executed," it's a "legitimate option."

I think you either mispelled "mischaracterize" as "clarify," or "or" as "and." I'm not sure a spell-checker would catch that sort of mistake, so I suppose it's understandable.

So as long as a war isn't "stupid, ham-handed, [or] obtusely executed," it's a "legitimate option"? No trifectas at this race track, I see.

Does that really change the sense of the sentence? I think the phrase is "incompetence dodge," but more to the point, when is a war not in the actual defense of the nation ever "legitimate"?

Does that really change the sense of the sentence?

For some set of values of "stupid," it sure does. One constantly repeated claim in the blogosphere has been that the invasion of Iraq was stupid because Hussein's Iraq never represented a threat to US national security interests. We might disagree about what constitutes a sufficient threat to "US national security interests," but that's a narrower disagreement than the one you seem to be describing.

We are at least a mildly warlike country

Sure... my position is that Americans like wars, although we do get depressed and generally pissy when they turn out to be more complicated than, say, a fairly exciting World Series sweep. In fact, my totally unsubstantiated pet theory is that our fondness for war could pretty easily be linked to the enormous number of professional sports franchises and/or championships, megachurches & huge religious revivals, and the number of broadcast hours devoted to all of the above. Aggressiveness and self-righteousness are pretty famous defining characteristics for us as a people, and when we can't balance them with our equally-famous tolerance and optimism, we end up in serious trouble.

So being anti-war is suspect because it's, well, no fun-- how to trust someone who thinks too much about depressing consequences, or dares to question the superiority of our moral foundations?- war's a fairly simple emotional construct that distracts from the ambiguity of most other areas of life, so of course it's pretty popular in a country that has relatively little chance of facing massive destruction.

With due respect, "US national security interests," like "weapons-related programs activities," is a euphemism and an excuse. There are threats to nations, and then there are threats to national interests. Now when your "national interests" involve a worldwide military garrison state, "security" suddenly rears its shaggy head. There are always well-meaning but gullible people willing to buy the line that somehow the affairs of other countries are in our "vital interest," or "national security interest." Those people are particularly prevalent in America, not least among those who describe themselves as liberals and purport to look askance at George W. Bush's militarism. But as Jim Henley pointed out, there is no other nation in the world starting a new war every few years, each one because of some new, unique, unprecedented threat to its national security interests, and if there were, we'd probably invade it too.

In other words, it seems to me that the reason Democrats and their supporters want to distance themselves from the "antiwar" label is because they favor war as a regular instrument of national policy. You may be more circumspect about it than chest-thumping Republicans, but there it is. You want to reserve the right to shoot some cruise missiles at Africa, as it were, so that you've got something to yank out the next time a Republican accuses you of being "weak on defense."

With due respect, "US national security interests," like "weapons-related programs activities," is a euphemism and an excuse.

With due respect, so's "threats to nations," in some usages. Recall that the Iraq invasion was often initially referred as a "preemptive war," and the historical analogies to which people pointed (IIRC) were German troops lining up on the border and a preferred hypothetical Allied reaction, and the pan-Arab military machinations prior to the Six Day War and the Israeli response (or perhaps "presponse"). In both analogous cases, the threat seems pretty clearly to be to "nations."

If you're looking for language to steer you right in all cases, I'm afraid you're going to be disappointed. Sucks, but there it is.

"But the record is pretty clear -- she was for it"

MY's still going with "War is peace".

Sad.

No one starts a war--or rather, no one in his senses ought to do so--without first being clear in his mind what he intends to achieve by that war and how he intends to conduct it

Very good Thanks You!

Thanks for the post! I somehow missed this and wouldn't have known without your post. I heard about it on boagworld.com's podcast but I've been following your work since the late '90's.
Thanks for all your hardwork and your recent book. It's been a great addition to my library!

Assuming that there was a liberal media bias, we didn't believe the media, even though they were correct. The obvious solution, now that the media is vindicated and we were proven wrong, is to correct the liberal media bias which, as I just stated, only existed in our imaginations.

I agree that really is an interesting new way to liveblog, I remember sitting and constantly refreshing the page to recieve updates towards using computers to organize information.

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Üstün kalitemiz ve personelimizle hizmetinizdeyiz..
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Üstün kalitemiz ve personelimizle hizmetinizdeyiz..
EKS CAM BALKON
0216 517 22 16

Thanks…