Rudy: Management Genius

Attached is a link to a column in todays Washington Post about Mr. Giulianis' mean disposition and explosive temper. He might well self destruct in the heat of a hotly contested presidential race.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/05/AR2007030501187.html

"The crime problem when Giuliani took office was really bad. Things got much better under his tenure."

Sigh. Crime had already started a dramatic decline under the Dinkens administration.

And crime in NYC across the Dinkens and Giuliani administrations fell almost in perfect lockstep with other US cities, which serves as strong circumstantial evidence that the drop in crime should be laid at factors far beyond Gracie Mansion.

I hope you get a gig in the MSM, and continue to be as incisive and direct a bulsshit detector as you are in your blog.

One thing's for sure- our next president must be able to accomplish those goals which he or she promised to achieve. That would include the Millennium Development Goals!

The second might be relevant if Giuliani were running for mayor of a large city with a major crime problem (Washington, DC, say) but has nothing to do with being president.

Of course, if one believes this, then nothing that a Governor or Senator does is relevant to being president either. So Matthew's assertion is really damning every single candidate out there.

Low-profile things like, say, disaster response were horribly mismanaged, just like Bush with Katrina.

What???

New York City had the biggest disaster in the history of the Untied States during Giuliani's tenure, and Giuliani performed perfectly. Is Matthew completely out of his mind???

"New York City had the biggest disaster in the history of the Untied States during Giuliani's tenure, and Giuliani performed perfectly."

Providing good sound bites on the day of the disaster is not the sole responsibility of a chief executive. Heeding his advisors and not locating the city's emergency command center inside the most obvious target of a terrorist attack would be better evidence of performing perfectly.

Bingo.

And let's not forget the crime rate started to drop under Dinkins, and continued to drop (and stay low when other cities were climbing) after Guiliani left office. Rudy's first term wasn't met with anything near universal approval--he was re-elected with just 55% of the vote, compared to Koch's 78% re-elect in the mid 1980's.

And also, Giuliani's a miserable failure on leadership. On 9/11, firefighters and cops couldn't communicate with each other--and this had been a problem for YEARS. He spent millions moving the city's emergency response center to the 23rd floor of WTC 7, over the protests of many including his chief of police, and as predicted, it was useless in a terrorist attack (and was actually destroyed when WTC7 collapsed). He did nothing to warn people about the toxic air after 9/11, and thousands of people are sick as a result. He threatened to illegally run for office, creating a constitutional crisis, unless his term in office was extended.

Heeding his advisors and not locating the city's emergency command center inside the most obvious target of a terrorist attack would be better evidence of performing perfectly.

He put it in WTC 7, not WTC 1 or 2. I mean, come on.

Yes, because no one could possibly have foreseen that WTC7 would have been affected by an attack on the two enormous buildings right across the street. Idiot.

"He put it in WTC 7, not WTC 1 or 2. I mean, come on."

But many were opposed to even that, for reasons that proved quite prescient.

And, as noted by another commenter, he failed to heed repeated warnings about the fire/police command structure that ended up being fatal on 9/11.

I honestly can't figure out what you're referencing when you say he "performed perfectly" other than his ability to give good TV on the day of the attacks. And while that's not an unimportant thing, it's really not a good measure of the fullness of a chief executive's responsibilities.

Is this fake Al?

The point isn't Guliani, per se, but Bush. Guliani is the flotsam Lowry is hoping to cling to, as he can no longer pretend that the CEO goal-setting, delegating, "decider" president is competent in any sense of the word.

The appeal of Guliani, and Romney for that matter, is that neither of them screwed the pooch when the heat was on. We can argue endlessly about how they performed overall, but it took the ex-CEO team of Bush/Cheney to repeatedly ignore warnings of impending doom, and then claim what was predicted was unforseeable and unavoidable, as with 9/11, Iraq and Katrina.

Shorter, more musical Al:

How did I get so rude and reckless?
Why am I so crude and feckless?
I must be drinking booze for breakfast
Rudy can't fail

Yes, because no one could possibly have foreseen that WTC7 would have been affected by an attack on the two enormous buildings right across the street.

All of America was "affected". You're saying Giuliani should have put the OEM center in Canada?

WTC 7 was just simply not a high profile target. Pretending that WTC 7 is no different than WTC 1 or 2 is transparent obfuscation.

I honestly can't figure out what you're referencing when you say he "performed perfectly" other than his ability to give good TV on the day of the attacks. And while that's not an unimportant thing, it's really not a good measure of the fullness of a chief executive's responsibilities.

So, the only thing that was done is to go on TV? Maybe I remember 9/11 differently than you. I remember a hell of a lot happening - such as getting the city back on its feet and going again. I remember dealing with hundreds of scares and yet still keeping the city going. I remember a rescue and recovery effort on a completely unprecedented scale. I guess that was all just on TV.

One larger point that Lowry is brushing upon is that all the GOP candidates are front runners because they have performed ably in the jobs--governor, mayor, and senator--and are in the race by virtue of their political and governing skills. This is a good thing, and it means that whoever wins the GOP nomination will likely be a competant politican who will perform better than the current president.

In contrast to the "choice" the Republicans had to make in 2000, they now have a field devoid of any candidates who feel entitled to the presidency by virtue of their last name. Which, unfortunately, is more than the Democrats can say,

Me? I remember Giuliani wanting the laws to be ignored so that he could continue in office.

That's just insane.

And insanity's pretty damning.

New York City had the biggest disaster in the history of the Untied States during Giuliani's tenure, and Giuliani performed perfectly."

Hyperbole much?? About 3 times as many people were killed in the Galveston Hurricane of 1900 than died in the terrorist attacks on 9/11.

"I remember a hell of a lot happening - such as getting the city back on its feet and going again."

My point here is that several of Giuliani's decisions as chief executive prior to 9/11 negatively impacted the situation in several ways, including debatably leading to the deaths of many, many firefighters. (And these poor decisions were not only poor in retrospect.)

And thus it's not quite right to describe Giuliani's 9/11 performance as chief executive as having "performed perfectly" unless you're oddly restricting yourself to describing his public cheerleading efforts - which he did indeed perform far better than his counterpart in the White House.

All of America was "affected". You're saying Giuliani should have put the OEM center in Canada?

Canada? No. But a building that wasn't across the fucking street would have been nice. I didn't realize that every building in all of America collapsed on 9/11. That must have been one hell of an impact.

Hyperbole much??

Maybe a little. But Galveston is not Lower Manhattan, no matter how many people died there. Number of deaths is not the sole way to rank the effect of a disaster.

OMG, I don't even know where to begin. My wife worked for City Hall during the Giuliani administration and the notion that he's a responsible, competent manager is perhaps the single greatest myth perpetrated by the MSM. So-called journalists like Rich Lowry need to spend time in New York, canvassing all five boroughs and reporting on whether eight million New Yorkers consider Giuliani an effective leader and manager, compared to, say, Michael Bloomberg. The answer -- from millions of us who depised Rudy's narcissitic style of governance -- would be a resounding "no."

As distasteful as it to observe Washington media types pontificate, it drives me bonkers when they pontificate about something they know NOTHING about: the true state of affairs in New York thtoughout Giuliani's mayoralty. Hence we get the same stupid cliches, time after time. Talk about galling.

You mean 'unlike a US Attorney' instead of 'unless a US Attorney' right? Sorry it just threw me for a sec.

All of America was "affected". You're saying Giuliani should have put the OEM center in Canada?

WTC 7 was just simply not a high profile target. Pretending that WTC 7 is no different than WTC 1 or 2 is transparent obfuscation.

I would have found that comment funny had I not had to walk past the still-smoldering wreckage of those buildings every day for months - beset by the overpoweringly pungent odor of burning chemicals and rotting flesh.

From my vantage point, there seemed to be quite a bit of room between WTC 7 and Canada - yet not so much between WTC 7 and WTC 1 and 2. But, then, I was never much good with maps. Giuliani must be though, because Al's right: it was either WTC 7 or Ottawa.

To claim otherwise would be transparent obfuscation, and Al knows a thing or two about that now don't he.

Matt,

I think you're being insufficiently generous.

I agree that Giuliani's primarly known for reducing New York City's crime problem. Let's leave aside whether he deserves that credit. Your point seems to be that the MOST we should credit him with is BEING A GOOD CRIME REDUCER, which, you rightly note, isn't particularly relevant to being a good president, seeing that American crime isn't so bad and that the president can't do much about crime anyway. But there's no need to view his record so narrowly. The people who support Giuliani don't look at his record and conclude that he's a good crime reducer. They look at his record and conclude that this is a man who can get things done when he wants them done. If Giuliani's passions had been reversed, if he hadn't cared a whit about crime rates but cared desperately about school reform, then what New York would have had under his tenure was much better schools and no progress on crime. Or at least that's what his proponents are taking away from his years in office.

As for Giuliani's quest for the spotlight, I think you're overselling how much attention America pays to the president. Major presidential policy initiatives are often followed by a presidential tour of the nation, with the president travelling from state to state attempting to sell his policy to the public and the major political players at the state level. Bush did one once during his push to revise social security and again when he was promoting the escalation in Iraq. Those tours are necessary precisely because holding a press conference in Washington won't cut it. People aren't listening, even to the President. A president with a passion to be heard and a knack for getting listened to has the potential to use the pulpit the presidency provides very effectively.

Don't get me wrong, I think Rudy would be a pretty terrible president. But I don't think the reasons you give are the reasons to be skeptical.

Bernie Kerik

"Cashing in on post-9/11 popularity with a business/self-help book on "leadership" offering the same pearls of wisdom you could get from a popular retired NFL coach or, for that matter, a high school basketball coach is not the same as management expertise."

Frankly, I had rather read the insights of Belichick (not retired) or Morgan Wooten (legend of HS basketball). Guiliani probably is on par with the insights of the recently re-retired Big Tuna, however.

If Giuliani's passions had been reversed, if he hadn't cared a whit about crime rates but cared desperately about school reform, then what New York would have had under his tenure was much better schools and no progress on crime.

Sorry, but that's bullshit. Know why? Because you can't improve education by the use of physical force, intimidation, and running roughshod over people's civil liberties. Those things can be useful in reducing crime. But you can't force knowledge into kid's heads, you actually have to do the hard work of improving the schools. It was patently beyond Giuliani's competence, which is why I suspect he didn't make it a priority.

And what, by the way, does it say about Rudy that he didn't give a shit about improving the schools?

Maybe a little. But Galveston is not Lower Manhattan, no matter how many people died there. Number of deaths is not the sole way to rank the effect of a disaster.

At the time Galveston was the largest city in Texas. But since it wasn't lower Manhattan I guess it doesn't count.

You want to talk number of people directly affected or area affected or money involved - 9/11 would be drawfed by the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927. Wiggle and squirm and move goalposts all you want, Al - you assertions of "fact" are sorely lacking. Just because something happens in Lower Manhattan automatically makes it "the biggest disaster in the history of the United States". Yeah, right.

Crime had already started a dramatic decline under the Dinkens administration.

correct, the murder rate peaked the first year dinkins was mayor. but dinkins is black so the entire downward spiral is laid at his feet, and not those of former democrat ed koch, whose tenure saw crime increases EVERY YEAR.

BTW - those who blame Giuliani for not fixing education while he was mayor are showing their ignorance of NYC's governance structure.

Giuliani didn't have the authority to fix education while he was mayor. The Board of Ed controls education in NYC, and when Giuliani was mayor, he did not control the Board of Ed. Only after Bloomberg became mayor did the State legislature give the office of mayor control over the Board of Ed.

"New York City had the biggest disaster in the history of the Untied States during Giuliani's tenure, and Giuliani performed perfectly. Is Matthew completely out of his mind???"

Posted by: Al

Try a hurricane. Imagine if a category 3-5 storm was 48 hours from a direct hit on Manhattan. See how the evacuation worked; see how many police and firefighters might have decided that saving their own families was most important.

There were several important things about 9/11 which made Giuliani look better:

1) No warning - which means that bad preparations were largely excused, panic beforehand wasn't a problem; nor was absenteeism. A mass evacuation combined with large-scale absenteeism among city/county workers would have been a disaster.

2) Extremely localized damage - the damage zone in Manhattan was measured in a few blocks. In New Orleans, by contrast, it was measured in square miles. The fact that Giuliani's emergency command post was destroyed was a testimony to his stupidity, not to any massive area devastated.

3) Limited levels of wounded people. Several accounts from the hospitals afterwards commented that the expected influx of casualties didn't happen - for the most part, people were either killed or suffered minor injuries. If several thousand people had been seriously injured, there'd have been thousands of deaths due to lack of medical care (which would pretty much be the case for all cities, but it would take the shine off of Guiliani's rep).

4) Hostile act - people blamed Al Qaida, as they should. But the wave of patriotism, and the taboo on criticism adopted by the GOP and MSM helped. In New Orleans, by contrast, the GOP and its right-wing Wurlitzer quickly adopted a 'blame the victims' propaganda theme.

Another is “Prepare Relentlessly.” He delivered annual 90-minute State of the City addresses without a prepared text...

well that seems contradictory

Only after Bloomberg became mayor did the State legislature give the office of mayor control over the Board of Ed.

Right. Because Bloomberg asked for that control -- actually spent some political capital trying to get it.

But more to the point, Giuliani had de facto control of the NYC Board of Education anyway, through his appointees. He certainly seemed to be able to engineer firings and hirings of the Chancellor (Rudy Crew, Harold Levy) at his pleasure.

At the time Galveston was the largest city in Texas. But since it wasn't lower Manhattan I guess it doesn't count.

911 was undoubtedly a more serious cataclysm than the Galveston storm. In addition to the horrific loss of life (which, if not quite as large as Galveston's was still in the same range), global economic losses are likely to have exceed $1 trillion. This really is a different scale than the legendary Texas storm, as horrible as it was.

There's also, of course, the fact that 911 triggered a war (or series of wars) whose disastrous effects we're still living with on a daily basis.

Al: I think you hit a nerve, by the way. If this thread is representative of lefty feelings about Rudy, he's one candidate they're definitely afraid of.

Buh-buh-buh Bush has an MBA!

Why did WTC7 collapse?

Rudy is temperamentally incapable of accomplishing anything if he can't arrest, indict, fire, or de-fund people who stand in his way. He deserves genuine credit for his first-term crime-fighting, even though crime was dropping in NYC for two years before he became mayor, dropped in lots of places where he wasn't mayor, and kept dropping in NYC after he was no longer mayor (under one of David Dinkins's police chiefs, by the way). Not only didn't he do much about reforming education, his very presence impeded reform. It is no accident that mayoral control -- which he and just about everyone else advocated -- didn't become a reality until a very different mayor, who could be trusted to handle it somewhat responsibly, was elected. Rudy's second term, through 9/10/01, was a sad, sour, egomaniacal soap opera of a performance that cost NYC millions in legal fees and, until 9/11, had made his political future a joke.
Just about anybody could have done what Rudy did on 9/11. If the attacks had come on 2/11/02 or 3/11/02, does anyone doubt that Mayor Mark Green or Mayor Freddy Ferrer or Mayor Bloomberg could have had someone write inspiring speeches and stood jut-jawed on the rubble?

Rambuncle, Counterpunch.org, of all places had a good report on this. IIRC, the debris from the falling towers next to it damaged the superstructure of WTC7, the heat from the fires in WTC1 &2 spread to cause secondary fires in WTC7, which in turn spread to the fuel tanks of the backup power generators located in WTC7. The combustion of these was sufficiently violent to bring the whole thing down, given the damage it had already suffered earlier

Also, if i remember rightly, Giuliani showed a deal of physical courage on Sept 11, encouraging emergency workers while standing right next to the danger zone. Physical courage like that makes a big impression (McCain's stay in the Hanoi Hilton does much the same for him). Personally, I think physical courage is a dangerous attribute to select a president on - I admire it, but it's not well correlated (either way) with intelligence and sound morals. For example both Saddam Hussein and Mohammed Atta went to their deaths showing physical courage, but this does not alter the fact that they were both appalling human beings. (and no, I do not think that Giuliani resembles the latter two in any other way than determination in the face of deadly hazard)

Right. Because Bloomberg asked for that control -- actually spent some political capital trying to get it.

Of course Giuliani lobbied for control of NYC education throughout his 8 years too. In fact, as I recall, Giuliani said that his biggest regret in his 8 years as mayor was not being able to get control of education in NY. I guess you can fault Giuliani on not being as good an Albany lobbyist as Bloomberg (note that Giuliani was just as unsuccessful as Dinkins and Kock in this regard). But that's different than faulting him on not improving education.

Al: I think you hit a nerve, by the way. If this thread is representative of lefty feelings about Rudy, he's one candidate they're definitely afraid of.

You can tell that the 9/11 thing really has the left concerned in that the focus of the attacks on Giuliani are 9/11-based: he didn't do anything except go on TV, or 9/11 wasn't that big a disaster. There's plenty of ammunition against Giuliani - Louima and so on - but there's a degree of desperation about 9/11.

"You can tell that the 9/11 thing really has the left concerned in that the focus of the attacks on Giuliani are 9/11-based: he didn't do anything except go on TV, or 9/11 wasn't that big a disaster. There's plenty of ammunition against Giuliani - Louima and so on - but there's a degree of desperation about 9/11."

I can only speak for myself, but my only point about Giuliani and 9/11 was that he hadn't "performed perfectly" in light of various widely reported failings in his management of the city's emergency capabilities.

But I don't deny that 9/11 is obviously his electoral hole card. The fact that he was good on TV that day is all that most non-involved voters will ever care about.

That said, I'd much rather run against Giuliani than McCain. Giuliani (much like Obama) can be sliced up like the 'zards defense. McCain has much stronger shields.

Management, Rudy style.

WTC is bombed in 2/93 by "islamofascists," who claim that the WTC is a symbol, a rotting pillar of Western iniquity.

Mayor Rudy announces that NYC is building a new Crisis Response Center to contend with such emergencies. And the location of that new nerve center?

The WTC.

Not exactly the sort of thing a top-flight manager wants on his resume.

I dunno, Petey. If Giuliani can get through the primary, don't you think that will show his defense isn't all that bad? After all, the people he mostly has to play defense against are conservatives, not independents or liberals. I don't know whether he can get through the primary, but if he can, I think it is pretty clear he'd be the most formidable candidate. ('Course, I'm biased, as a Giuliani supporter.)

"I remember a hell of a lot happening - such as getting the city back on its feet and going again. I remember dealing with hundreds of scares and yet still keeping the city going. I remember a rescue and recovery effort on a completely unprecedented scale."

What exactly what did he do to get the city back on its feet? How did he "deal" with hundreds of scares and to "[keep] the city going"? And what did he have to do with the rescue and recovery process?

"If Giuliani can get through the primary, don't you think that will show his defense isn't all that bad?"

It would show his defense isn't utterly abominable, but some pretty flawed candidates can make it through the primaries.

And I'm not saying I think Giuliani would be a weak candidate. I think he'd be pretty formidable. But I do think he'd be susceptible to bleeding, which is a large part of the reason I'd rather run against him than McCain.

A close friend whose political judgments I've always trusted (acquainted me with Chomsky, for example) was a great fan of Giuliani when he lived in New York. He said he was great for public order generally, not just "tough on crime", and that he displayed a lot of managerial competence, for example, in daily morning press conferences addressed to particulars like getting snowplows to airports in blizzards and the like. Anybody here acquainted with this aspect of Giuliani's resume?

That question posed, "managerial competence" at the city level is ultimately irrelevant once one becomes head of an unadulteratedly corrupt national party.

Al: I think you hit a nerve, by the way. If this thread is representative of lefty feelings about Rudy, he's one candidate they're definitely afraid of.

Yes, you've got us. Please don't throw us in that briar patch.

The "nerve" that Giuliani hits may have something to do with this:

"So authoritarian followers hate who their authorities tell them to hate; and will usually let off the brakes and act on that hatred only when their authorities give them permission to. Because they rely on external authority to guide their actions, and fear the loss of social order, social and legal sanctions are often effective at curbing their tendencies toward violence. And, left on their own, they will generally remain fairly benign."

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/02/eliminationist-minority.html

Abner Louima, a Haitian immigrant tortured and sodomized by officers in a Brooklyn station house in 1997, claimed that one of the officers said, "It's Giuliani time!" during the beating. Mr. Louima later retracted his statement about what the officers said, though his injuries were pretty definitive about what the officers _did_.

The "lefty" concern is that a Giuliani Prsidency would continue the current "permissive" atmosphere, permissive of torture, beatings, border shootings, "extraordinary rendition" and general intolerance backed up by violence and threats thereof.

Of course, "lefty" in this case would include the likes of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan, but we're so past those quaint old birds.

Funny, I'd make the case that Rudy and Bush are the same. Once they have a legal opinion/view that they think gives them Right, they both become ... "the decider". A close coterie provides the unity necessary to form a ramshead.

bitter recounts from the indy press:
http://colorado.indymedia.org/newswire/display/2129/index.php

You can tell that the 9/11 thing really has the left concerned in that the focus of the attacks on Giuliani are 9/11-based

Because his performance on 9/11 is the only thing, so far, that he appears to be running on. Certainly the only thing that most Americans know him for. When Rudy cares to make a case for himself on other grounds (no pun intended), we liberals will be happy to eviscerate that case as well.

Personally, I'm not worried in the least. I have full confidence that, once America gets to know Rudy as well as those of us in NYC, his poll numbers will come back to earth.

"I think he'd be pretty formidable."

Why is that?

All of America was "affected". You're saying Giuliani should have put the OEM center in Canada?

Wow, it's only March, and I still think this is the odds-on favorite for "The Stupidest Argument On The Intertubes Not Made By Glenn Reynolds" this year.

Thanks, Scott. Maybe one day I'll even get to be Atrios's Wanker of the Day. A higher honour I cannot contemplate.

I have full confidence that, once America gets to know Rudy as well as those of us in NYC, his poll numbers will come back to earth.

What in the world makes you think America will get to know Rudy as well as the citizens of NYC?

Will the network news teach America about the real Rudy?

The narrative has been etched in stone, given from on high:

"Rudy Giuliani is America's Mayor."

I think that a good case can be made that Guliani is insane. I would play this radio tape frequently: "there is something sick in your excessive concern for the little weasels". This could be a sarcastic repartee, but no, Rudi ranted on an on against a caller to the radio show he visited, and agaist ferrets --- which were outlawed by his administration.

Cruel attitude toward little furry animals --- that will not go well with the public.

thanks

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