Second Shift

I think you forgot to close the link tag ...

Just agree on a certain level of cleaning and outsource it to a third party. The sure-fire recipe for living partnership happiness and cleanliness all in one.

Women want a cleaner house than men care about. You can ascribe this to societal norms, or acculturation, or genetics -- you take your pick. Doesn't really matter for the problem at hand. And, obviously, it's a gross generalization (there are exceptions to everything) but we all know through anecdotal evidence that it is true (just look at the homes of single women and single men you have known, and compare them). So, what to do about it? The issue is always framed as "men should do more housework," but why shouldn't it instead be framed as "women should just do less housework?" Again, cultural norms are being used to assert that men should kindly help the poor, helpless women, who can't help themselves in wanting to clean like it's a form of OCD. Get over it.

Strictly speaking, dividing up the hours of cleaning per week 50/50 isn't automatically an equitable result. Just use the same analysis you did to conclude that the current equilibrium was inequitable.

If both parties work 8.5 hours a week, the man ends up spending 1.5 hours per week generating a level of cleanliness in which he has no interest. The woman, on the other hand, works 1.5 fewer hours per week in order to obtain her preferred outcome.

If "equitable" is defined as "equal" instead of "the opposite of what the patriarchy says," then an equitable result would involve not only equalizing labor, but also equalizing preferences, expectations, and the degree to which they are to be met by the parties' living arrangements.

A perfectly equitable division of labor, should result in a couple doing a combined seventeen hours

That's only true if you think that there is no economy of scale for cohabitation. That is, that cooking for 2+ requires exactly as much labor as cooking for 1, twice; that vaccuuming will take twice as long because the two+ will occupy twice as much floor area, etc.

I expect less total housework in the combined household. That this study showed more, I am guessing is a consequence of there being more housework with children present, and children being correlated with cohabitation.

I wonder if the study showed how much time people spent working outside the house? Are these men working harder to make up for doing less housework?

There is probably a lesson here about the perceived marginal benefit of cleaning here, which may apply over other co-habitative issues. I hope eHarmony is adjusting their love algorithm's accordingly.

Inasmuch as the woman appears to want 10 hours of cleaning time per person, it seems reasonable to assume that men also have a default level of per person cleanliness: 7 hours. In which case, it looks like the guy is shirking two hours per week, or 17 minutes a day. The woman is, by default, contributing three hours more cleaning time than the man thinks is necessary per person, and the result is that the cleanliness per person, as measured by hours per person cleaning, has gone up to 7.5 hours. All of which makes me wonder whether there is a fairly short range timing problem here. For example, suppose a man wants to clean the kitchen (dishes, pots, etc.) first thing in the morning, and a woman wants to clean the kitchen the night before, after dinner is done. I could see that accounting for 17 minutes a day.

"All the girls are sitting on a pile of gold..."

I wish I hadn't been high when I was trying to figure out your logic on this one.

A perfectly equitable division of labor, should result in a couple doing a combined seventeen hours and then splitting it evenly -- 8.5 hours each.

What??

That makes no sense. You can't simply add together each person's ex-living-together amount of work to get the post-living-together amount of work. There's an economy of scale!

Man with one bathroom to clean and woman with one bathroom to clean. Woman moves in with man. That doesn't make two bathrooms to clean.

The really odd thing is that the total amount of time spent cleaning increased after moving in together, not decreased, as should be expected. That indicates to me that there is something odd with the data. My hunch is that the data does not take into account that people who live together are more likely to have children than singles. (There is an ambiguous phrase about children in the story, but no data presented.)

Or, I could have typed "What Leonard said".

It might be worth noting that this is Britain and not the US. While the UK has built more governmental social support than the US has, it's a mistake to presume that social attitudes in the UK are more progressive or even as progressive, particularly with regard to women's issues.

Or to put it another way: I lived in England for a year and only once saw a man out walking a baby. And he was my Brazilian co-worker.

You can download the paper here:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-0297.2007.02012.x

I cannot find any reference in the paper to any statistics for unmarried men. This is puzzling. But for the other numbers, go and look at table 1, on page 294.

First off, the reporting on this has rounded numbers to make things look slightly less fair. "Men in couple" actually do 5.6 hours of housework, whereas "Women in couple" do 14.6. Not 5 and 15, as reported. Honest reporters should round numbers the same way, no?

According to the paper, men also work much longer hours than do women. "Men in couple" average 45.1 hours per week. "Women in couple" average 32.5. Thus, average leisure time is higher for women than for men.

Not exactly the spin that was reported, eh?

Speaking from experience, two other factors are likely to be playing a role here:
- Couples tend to live in bigger places than singles (so it's two bathrooms (or three) rather than one bathroom.
- Kids

I don't think we should be too hasty to assume that single women do more housework just because they have a preference for a cleaner house. It may be that single women do more housework because society judges women more by the cleanliness of their house than it judges men by the cleanliness of their house -- that is, even if a woman doesn't care about how clean her house is, she has to keep her house cleaner than a man does in order to attain her other goals.

If both parties work 8.5 hours a week, the man ends up spending 1.5 hours per week generating a level of cleanliness in which he has no interest. The woman, on the other hand, works 1.5 fewer hours per week in order to obtain her preferred outcome.

If we're going to accept the "add up the hours" model, then 17 hours won't get you the woman's preferred outcome; it'll get you a level of cleanliness midway between the woman's preferred level and the man's preferred level. In order to get the woman's preferred level you'd have to do 20 hours of housework -- as Yglesias discusses in the post. So equalizing preferences as well as work would in fact mean that each partner does 8.5 hours of work, if we accept the "adding up the hours" model.

Anyway, the adding up the hours model is shite, since the study includes households with and without children. I'd bet that couples living together are more likely to have children, and there's more housework to be done in households with children.

I'm no statistician, but there are a huge number of reasons why this might be true besides some variety of sexism, many of which have already been listed. I'll add another one regarding regarding male reduction in house-cleaning: Isn't it possible that, for example, most single males clean the house so that women won't find them as slovenly as they actually are? I mean, motivation matters. In such a case, men might simply clean less when the goal of cleaning is already achieved.

Hypothetically speaking, of course. : )

Dude, gains from trade. Maybe women do less yardwork. Or get something else. Who knows? Who cares?

How come I do all the cleaning at my house? Can someone give my wife an injection of these female cleaning hormones?

She does do all the cooking, but still, could she at least get her shoes near the damn closet?

I've lived with women who've refolded the laundry after I've folded it, insisted on hand drying dishes rather than letting them dry on the rack, vacuum daily, and squeegee the shower after every use. They're doing more housework than the men they're living with it's because they're crazy.

Isn't this why God invented illegal immigrants?

Did you guys see this article: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-me-immigstudy28feb28,0,30276.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Pretty much outlines why immigration, illegal or otherwise, is good for the nation. And if it could be good for relationships, Score!

what's being counted as housework in this study? Just the cooking and cleaning, or total upkeep of the house? Do both spouses work the same number of hours? Are they separating childless couples from those with children? I can't get the link to the report to work.

This seems to match what I've seen elsewhere, though in general the families I know the female tends to have a part time job while the male has a full-time one. That would lead to a natural (and fair) inequity in the hours of housework done. Also, most males I know do plenty around the house, they just don't do things that are typically listed as "housework". They shovel snow in driveways, they cut lawns, they fix all the random crap and build additions to the home. They service the vehicles for simple problems. These activities are obviously necessary and part of a houses upkeep, but are rarely added to the list of activities considered "housework". Not so much because of an attempt to skew results as people generally just don't think of those things as housework even though they obviously are.

According to the paper, men also work much longer hours than do women. "Men in couple" average 45.1 hours per week. "Women in couple" average 32.5.

Clearly the issue isn't men shirking housework, but rather women shirking employment. Matthew should update his post.

Doesn't all this stuff about gains from trade, uncounted male housework, and more male work at paying jobs seem a little bit elaborate in its protests?

(What about a simple DTMFA?)

I'd be curious to see what the breakdown of housework is between platonic male and female roommates. If females' increased preference for cleanliness is the cause of the disparity, you should also see female roommates doing more work than male roommates. Although one could, I suppose, work out an arrangement where the female roommate did more housework but had the bigger room, or paid less rent, or something.

You'd have to leave group houses (such as the flophouse) out of the equation, though, because the general impression seems to be that no one in a group house does more than the minimal amount of cleaning possible.

These people obviously didn't visit our house because, like Alan, I do a vast majority of the housework (I've got a touch of OCD ... okay, maybe more than a touch).

Amazingly, after our son was born, we find that we do less housework now because there simply isn't enough time, and trying to keep a place neat with a two year old would be a full time job. So we've let a lot of things slide (mainly vacuuming).

And considering how many more sloppy women I knew in college than guys, I think these stats don't apply here in the U.S.

From my own personal experience I am suspicious that yard and big house repairs doesn't get counted into the equation. For example, there is no doubt my part-time working wife does more day-to-day household chores. But we both to tend to forget about the large yard projects that don't happen all the time, but take several full weekends of my time. Same with house repairs, minor construction, etc.

And I echo the "equitable" question- I like stacks of books around the house, I find that homey. My wife doesn't and cleans them up. She classifies that as housework, but its a source of negative utility for me, I would like the stack of three years of new york review of books to stay on the coffee table. So I don't think these stats really say anything at all.

Economies of scale do not necessarily factor into it. There may only be one bathroom between two people, but from certain perspectives regarding cleanliness, it may need cleaned twice as often.

Thank you Leonard. I suspected men would work longer ours outside the home, but the size of the difference surprised me.

Of course, all arguments about equity in the household should take into account work outside the household.

I'll second the point that economies of scale don't necessarily exist. Two people means the bathroom, carpet, dishes, etc get twice as dirty. Actually, if you're a woman going from living single to cohabitating with a man, you'll find the toilet, and area surrounding it, needs more than twice the amount of work to keep it clean (I picked that up not by noticing the mess I make, but by noticing how my son makes more of a bathroom mess than my daughter). Even cooking, if you cook 2 servings at a time, means you cook every day instead of every other day.

Missing data in the BBC report:

Assuming that 168 = work + sleep + recreation + house

a) Number of working hours before and after
b) Number of sleep hours before and after
c) Number of recreational hours before and after

I don't think you can draw any meaningful conclusions about what is happening without studying the entire set of numbers.

Also, what would David Ricardo say about this? He may invoke comparative advantage and suggest that the partner that can be paid more money overall for all of their payable non housework time should do none of the housework and the person making less overall for all of their payable non housework time should be doing all of the housework.

Or invoke linear programming and just optimize the money made by the household by solving the two equations.

Or instead of mere blame of the patriarchy, you could ask what has happened in our society that two dual income earners cannot afford to pay for various household help. Would a couple in 1900 earning as much proportionaly as that couple earns in 2007 be expected to have household help? My (most likely wrong) understanding is that in 1900, such households would be able to support multiple houseworkers. It may not be men that are to blame as much as it is corporations, and a weaker labor movement.

Matt Weiner is right above, and I am not.

Although I question the first paragraph of his post. He seems to believe he is undercutting the "women prefer household cleanliness more than men" argument, but is really just providing an explanation of it.

you could ask what has happened in our society that two dual income earners cannot afford to pay for various household help. Would a couple in 1900 earning as much proportionaly as that couple earns in 2007 be expected to have household help? My (most likely wrong) understanding is that in 1900, such households would be able to support multiple houseworkers. It may not be men that are to blame as much as it is corporations, and a weaker labor movement.

The answer isn't that households make less money in 2007 than they did in 1900, but that houseworkers are a lot more expensive.

may not be applicable in all cases, but before my girlfriend moved into my place she was living in a tiny dump which was not at all suitable for throwing parties, having guests over, etc. Now that we've got a fat pad, however, we have people over all the time -- and each time, she has to "get the place ready" In other words, because she has more company now she has to do more cleaning.

The part about men being content to live in their own filth is spot on, though - if it were up to me I'd be eating off paper plates.

Hey, if it was up to me, I'd be eating off your paper plates.

Um, found the beer, where are teh chips?

Patrick is my new favorite commenter.

Slut.

As to the second, what I'm saying is that women don't necessarily prefer more household cleanliness as such; they may like all the same things as men, but they need more household cleanliness to get what they want.

Example: Suppose that women are icked out by curly hair. As a curly-haired (heterosexual) guy, in order to attract women I would have to cut my hair shorter than a straight-haired guy. But that doesn't mean that I like having short hair more than straight-haired guys, I just need to have shorter hair than straight-haired guys in order to get something we both want.

Don't worry, Tim, the first one is still special.

they may like all the same things as men, but they need more household cleanliness to get what they want.

But how true to experience does that seem to you? I've never any guy tell me that he was interested in a woman, but her house was too dirty. I've never heard anyone say anything of that nature. If there's a mechanism of that sort here, I would guess that it's woman on woman criticism (e.g., Mom).

I've never any guy tell me that he was interested in a woman, but her house was too dirty. I've never heard anyone say anything of that nature. If there's a mechanism of that sort here, I would guess that it's woman on woman criticism (e.g., Mom).

I've heard at least one man criticize women for their housecleaning skills, my next door neighbor to be specific. So I've got anecdotal evidence to outweigh your anecdotal evidence.

I wrote about the study on my blog, in particular about the bargaining power aspect of the division of labor. Here!

Echidne's post makes it clear that I was mistaken about the hour-counting -- since the study looks at people who went from single to partnered or partnered to single, the single women are almost as likely to have children as the married women.

Re: but by noticing how my son makes more of a bathroom mess than my daughter).

If you're just talking about the toilet, maybe. But when you talk about the bathroom as a whole I have always found women are messier. Guys shave, shower, and brush their teeth and use the toilet. Women do all those things (shaving legs instead of faces) plus all kinds of extra primping. Sheer bathroom clutter is always greater with a woman in the house. For example a guy might have one bottle of men's cologne (or maybe none at all). Women always seem to have half a dozen to a dozen.

The housecleaning issue is just one of many that has marriage be a benefit to husbands more then wives. One theory is that this is why husbands are usually the first to go giving the wife chance to have a little fun being a woman without all the obligations of being a wife.

An anecdote:

When my wife was my girlfriend she lived in a messy apartment (and so did I, but a different one). Not dirty, per se, but cluttered and not the sort of place where you might host a dinner party. This is part of why we clicked with each other -- we were both semi-hermits and packrats, living with our apartments like they were big bedrooms. When she moved into my place, little changed. We had plenty of bookshelves to stick things on, and thankfully had a dishwasher, but we just kind of continued on.

After we married things changed a bit. She became very concerned about having people over for anything, and how messy the place was (keep in mind that people also came over sometimes when we lived together unmarried). She still doesn't really care about the messiness for our own use though. So, my point is that I wonder how much of this is about gender roles and how much is about the perceived norms of marriage and adulthood.

He got the bathroom. I got the kitchen. If he shirks his responsibilities then we just don't turn on the overhead light in the bathroom. If I shirk mine we all get food poisoning. I still think its a fair tradeoff, even if I spend 7-10 hours per week compared to his 1 or 2. At least I never have to clean the bathroom.

They key to the whole issue is to not judge your friends, neighbors, and relatives on the cleanliness of their house.
The reason women clean more is they know that if anyone stops by they will be "blamed" for the untidy living room.
You can divide up the chores anyway you want but until society blames men for dirty bathrooms nothing will really change.

Re: Aaron's comment- I remember once when unexpected guests were coming over and the house was a mess, I started madly straightening up all the public areas that would be visible. I told my husband to help, thinking he'd see the same piles of laundry and other detritus I saw, and tidy up. I went to give the
powder room the once-over, and when I came back, the same piles of laundry lay untouched, etc, and my husband was in the basement.I said, what are you doing, and he told me that he was changing the furnace filter(!) So, while I was freaking out and frantically cleaning so our friends wouldn't see our messy house and blame me, the woman, my husband was helping around the house in the way that made sense to him. I had to laugh at how totally different our perceptions were.

I need a housekeeper, wrote: "The reason women clean more is they know that if anyone stops by they will be "blamed" for the untidy living room.
You can divide up the chores anyway you want but until society blames men for dirty bathrooms nothing will really change."

It goes deeper than that. Women (speaking in general as you did) don't just clean more because they know they will be blamed, they clean more because they themselves have internalized the standards by which society is judging them. On top of that, women tend to be raised with a greater focus on pleasing others- making them more susceptible to these sorts of societal influences.

If you begin shoveling in bulk garbage through the open windows is that how polygamy starts?

until society blames men for dirty bathrooms nothing will really change.

Until women stop cleaning the bathroom, there will be no dirty bathrooms to blame on men.

If women want society to change in this manner, they need to be the ones who alter their actions. It's the same for make-up and body image issues. Men are never going to discourage women from cleaning bathrooms, looking pretty, and getting implants.

opinion from on the inside: hetero guys love to shirk. What is new about that?

Hire a maid for Christ's sake (yes yes, I know that costs money, but the return on your investment is greater than dinner for two at a nice restaurant). I'm single, so I have my housekeeper come over on Friday afternoons. If I bring a girl home (obviously I didn't tonight, because I'm posting on here), they'll look around with approval and often comment that my place is so clean.

There was one time, a girl was grossed out by how messy my fridge was (hadn't factored that in!). I just left a note for my housekeeper, and now that crack in the illusion is patched up.

Beowulf, I just banged that girl you were scoping out on my dirty living room floor. Perhaps, you should spend your money on something other than a maid.

I seriously doubt that, she had to be up early to take the SAT.

Other than college and maybe a couple of years after, have you ever gone over to a friend's place and actually notice that it was messy/dirty enough that you had a negative reaction to it?

My wife is pretty picky about keeping our place clean, and she and I agree that we've never noticed dirt in someone else's place--only in our own!

I think a more meaningful statistic might be the number of hours of leisure time per week each partner has. If leisure time = 168 - (hours at paid job including commute and work brought home + hours spent working around the house AND yard), then leisure time should be roughly equal for both partners. If the male partner has significantly more leisure time than the female, he's shirking.

Of course, that statistic ignores the differences in standards of cleanliness. I'm not sure how to work that in.

My live-in boyfriend of 13 years has gone away for the week. Firstly the house will not NEED cleaning - it just doen't get dirty when I'm on my own. The laundry will be minimal until he returns (and I do all laundry because he "forgets" which colours/fabrics run). I'll eat half the meals, and they will be simple salads or my favourite raw foods. That means no cooking, no dishes, no shopping for food, no packing and unpacking, no refuse bins to empty.

I'll remember to water the indoor plants and the garden (which I do anyway), record the TV programmes he will miss and will get twice as much work done (earning about 3 times what he will earn over this week). The TV probably won't be switched on.

In all, I will probably need to do 20% of my usual household workload to achieve a better result than when he is home. But I still miss him like crazy. :-)

You know what really amazes me is that people STUDY such BS.

What possibly can we learn from this "data" other than the data itself. It says nothing about women, men, housecleaning or cleanliness. The study is stupid, and thus, the only thing we can get from it is that women SAY they do more housework and men SAY they do less.

The study didn't MEASURE the hours; just measured the number of hours people CLAIM they do housework. It's crap science.

Even if you accept the premise that what people CLAIM is inded what happened; what did we learn. Not much. Women, for example, have MORE TIME for housework after they move in with a man because, perhaps, she now has a man available to do her automotive work.

Equitable? Ever try to get TWO PEOPLE into a bathroom to clean it? Doesn't work. So, the guy mows the yard now (this isn't classified as "housework") and washes both cars on the weekend while the woman vaccums.

Again though, even this much can't be gleaned from this bit of "science." People say crap in surveys that has no basis in reality all the time just to make themselves look good. This phenomenon has been confirmed again and again.

"Think" about it all you like. You'll learn nothing, because the study says nothing.

Thanks
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