The Future Ain't What It Used to Be

See, punks didn't like giant puppets. They liked harsh attitudes, and the Iraq War is plenty harsh. Nuclear war is even harsher, and we may get that yet. That would be skinhead Nazi punk heaven.

Matt, is it time to get you a "What Would Jello Biafra Do?" bracelet?

Strange post. Punks aren't known for their intellectual prowess or coherence, so I don't really get the point.

Sorry, Matt, you can't deflect that way. A Punk Rocker Is Really A Neo-Conservative!?!? Stop the presses. Plenty of punks were closet authoritarians; they just didn't like the particular authorities in charge at the time.

Lots of apparent lefties peed their pants on That Day After Which Nothing Would Evar Be The Same. Punk rockers can feel fear, too.

Let it go. You've admitted you were wrong. Quit trying to justify your mistake; if you can't, at least drop the "But Jimmy did it too!" defense.

-M

Punk never had a very coherent political position, but also, Mr. T Experience, while I liked them, was never really that much of a punk band, either. They were always just a major label offer away from being The Barenaked Ladies or Hootie and the Blow Fish.

Sorry man, but this is the lamest attempt at self-justification I have ever seen. The sad truth is that you just about lost my respect for all time -- the only hope to regain it is a far more serious self-examination and some honest, painful analysis of what exactly TF was wrong with your sorry excuse for a brain. I'm still waiting.

I agree with The Fool. This post makes your support for the war sound more stupid, not less.

What's all this worship of punk rock about anyway? It's music that's specifically supposed to be simple-minded, rebellious, loud, and angry. You'd have to be a dumb kid indeed to base your opinions on world affairs on what a third-tier punk rocker thinks. What? The best foreign policy is the most punk?

Sheesh.

Every time this lame-ass band opened for The Donnas(who were always against the war, BTW), the girls wiped the stage with them. Funny how they made it big and MTE still languish in relative obscurity...

Too bad you're only *half* joking.

Please grow up. People are dying because of such foolishness.

Man, the Mr. T Experience was so great. But they're also one of those groups that begat such horrible music that in retrospect you kind of wish they'd never left the basement in the first place.

I'm sorry, you were saying something about the war?

Yes, you should have listened to Green Day.

At least Matt came to his senses before the start of the war.

I remember another post in which he mentioned his dismissal of Harvard anti-war demonstrators and their hyperbolic arguments as being a factor in his tentative early support for the war. Not smart, but unfortunately too many people don't study an issue and make up their minds about an issue based on who is for or against it, which makes the prewar sins of the prominent (not Matt) liberal hawks even harder to forgive (despite Peter Beinert's recent apology, which was one of the best I've read).

Upon further inspection, it appears that MTX continues to exist. Strange.

But right, war.

I'll interrupt the hatefest here to say that I do get the point. There was a time in American politics when it seemed quite possible to justify the war on humanitarian grounds, and it further seemed valid to worry not about the administration's militaristic tendencies or incompetence but about the fact that they might not in reality be sincere enough about the neocon program of establishing a peaceful democratic Iraq.

Yeah, it sounds bizarre, but there it is. I remember it well. I remember the same thing with respect to Afghanistan, which even more clearly seemed to hold the possibility of being a Good War or a Bad War, depending on our seriousness about the project.

All the "apologies" in the world won't change the fact that attitudes toward the war did evolve over time. It's interesting to remember how and why.

sorry, i thought you were a Harvard grad. arent you supposed to be thinking for yourself? and not by association w pop musicians? or whoever else currently has the microphone? may i recommend the John Mayer song that plays constantly "we're waiting, waiting on the world to change" as the perfect song of political expression for your generation. now i understand how Larry Summers could be named president.

Some people will never understand punk, ever. But that sure the hell doesn't stop them from commenting on it.

Matt, I wrote to you about this then also.

You start a post with the rhetorical question, how could you have supported the war?

Your so-called answer seems to blame your opinion on being a fan of the wrong musical group.

Is that shallow thinking, or what? Did you ever consider analyzing the argument for and against war yourself, rather than letting someone with questionable credentials do it for you?

So Matt was wrong about the war, and admits it. Better than those who are running the country, people! and their MSM enablers who are still shilling for it because they can't admit they were wrong.

Yes, illustrating the point "those were crazy times" by telling us that "even the punks were going crazy!" might not be the most effective rhetorical strategy.

At the time, of course, it wasn't "even the punks," it was "Even The Liberal New Republic." In retrospect, I guess that doesn't look so strange, either.

One of my good friends is a former punker and a staunch Republican. The two are not mutually exclusive. As a liberal, it struck me as odd at first blush, but hell, what is anarchy if not libertarianism taken to an extreme?

Face it Matt, you were suckered by the thought that this might lead to a more peaceful, democratic, and pro-western Middle East. Like a mermaid's song, it was seductive, but it too was not real. You have sinced learned a lot more about the Middle East (as have all of us), and you need to bitch-slap that version of your self that fell for the bullshit.

There are lots of reactionary guys who are in or were in punk bands, the most obvious being Johnny Ramone -- who openly admired Reagan and so forth.

Never discuss religion, politics or music on your blog, fool!

The MTX took Matty away.

Oh, and by the way, I was "punk" long before little Matt ever heard of the Stranglers and the Damned, that is, if he ever has.

There were and are plenty of "punks" who are assholes.Spiked hair does not make for an informed populace.

Anyone, and I mean anyone, who wasn't vehemently against this war of lies from the very beginning is a sheep and an idiot.

And that includes young Mr. Yglesias.

Quite humorous take on the wingnuts' and sullivanfriedmankleins' excuses for supporting the fiasco.

The post is supposed to be that, is it not?

There sure are a lot of self-righteous assholes around here. Could it be that the post wasn't written in a serious vein? That it was just a comment about the weirdness of a punk band, not an actual justification for the war?

Most musicians are, ignorant, intolerant obnoxious assholes. I should know. I are one.

There sure are a lot of self-righteous assholes around here.

Seconded.

What could be more self-righteous and arrogant than joking about one's support for this war?

Never discuss religion, politics or music on your blog, fool!

Shouldn't that be: "I pity the fool who discusses religion, politics or music on their blog"?

I really don't get you people. Of everyone who initially got it wrong, you choose to give grief to Matt fucking Yglesias? Yglesias is one of the precious few pundits who have bothered to apply the lessons of the Iraq disaster the rest of American foreign policy - to try, in other words, to actually learn something from his mistake and avoid the next Iraq. Listening to the rhetoric on Iran and Israel from a number of "against it from the beginning" types like Obama and Dean, it's pretty clear that there wasn't a coherent policy operating there beyond "don't invade Iraq with 150,000 troops in March of 2003." A sane foreign policy requires a bigger picture than wars predicated entirely on the presence or absence of WMD, and people like Yglesias are pointing the way there. So really, people, get a fucking grip.

I know Wikipedia is not Professional Grade research-paper material, but this link might help some readers perplexed by Matt's post.

That guy is a POP-PUNK star, albeit one with intelligence and literary ability, not a guy who does political punk music. If the guys from Anti-Flag or Rancid had blogs in 2002 you can bet they wouldn't be full of that kind of sentiment.

My wife played drums for the Smears back in the day and managed to not support the Iraq war, so this is pretty weak. Then again, according to her experience, the vast majority of people worth taking seriously in the punk rock scene are drummers. Everyone knows lead singers/guitarists are full of crap.

That is why you should have been listening to Propagandi and not those poseurs.

Sheesh, what a tough audience! I'm with Christmas (who clearly sees that, on balance, MY has not been naughty) and Henley.

Regular readers of MY do understandably have high expectations, but personally, I'd rather see him laugh at others or himslef than produce a mea culpa white paper on Iraq.

As humor, the post failed. Perhaps because of its poor taste.

After reading the humorless halfwitted attacks on MY here, I've decided to retoactively support the war.

Drink your school! Stay in drugs! Don't do milk!

While folks like Matt won't again make the mistake of supporting a war just because it's opposed by a bunch of humorless holier-than-thou types, that doesn't make those people any less humorless or holier-than-thou.

The real question is what did Vivian from the Young Ones think about the war?

PS Viv was a true visionary, he was 20 years ahead of the extreme piercing thang.
Pierced brow, lips, Nips?

Vivian had spikes set into his bloody forehead!

That's the sign of a modern Disraeli if I ever saw one.

only users lose drugs.

What's worse: being "humorless", or laughing at how you mistakenly supported the biggest foreign-policy disaster in American history? Go tell your punk joke to a brain-damaged vet at Walter Reed. Ha ha.

Elitist pricks are elitist pricks, whether they're "on our side" or not.

I know Wikipedia is not Professional Grade research-paper material, but this link might help . . .
Out of curiosity, I decided to see what Conservapedia might say about Humor:

"There is no page titled "humor"."
What a surprise.
____________________________________________

It would be an interesting project to re-create a day in the political blogosophere circa the winter of 02/03 . . .

Try the F.U.'s "My America" instead.

Wow, these comments were a surprise. So much hate. So much non-understanding. But it looks like a lot of unfamiliar names. I guess that's partly an explanation. Its a lot easier to criticize MY when you didn't have a public position prewar, but okay, I'll take your word for it: that not only did you oppose this war, but you've never done anything that looked really foolish in retrospect. I guess we're the only idiots and sheep around here.

Part of the process is not just acknowledging mistakes, but trying to understand why they happened. Decisions and opinions are not formed in a vacuum. Contrary to apparently popular understanding it is intelligent and humble people who can be convinced, persuaded and influenced by other people who they respect. In my experience, the arrogant assholes who are always swimming against the tide end up swimming the wrong direction more often than not. So the state of public discourse is very important to understanding why we went to war and why so many people supported it. A humorous anecdote about it may indicate a sense of appreciation for the difficulty in thinking critically in a noisy social environment and a sense of humility regarding one's own efforts.

Reality is not always as it seems professor, and your elders (even the cool ones) are bound to be lying, hypocritical jerk types. But that isn't always such a bad thing.

As it happens, Linus used to ride around in the high school days with the friends listening to the Mr. T Experience's "Danny Partridge Got Busted".

One day the old hippie about town told me this story. When he was still a young hippie he had gone to my school. By coincidence so did Danny Bonaduce.

At some point this hippie and his older brother it seems saw fit to beat the crap out of Danny Partridge. They were promptly evicted from their private lower institution of learning.

On the one hand, where was all that peace, love, and understanding the hippie types are noted for?

On the other hand, aren't you glad someone kicked Danny Partridge's ass?

I always thought The A-Team was Mr. T's best work....What?....Oh....Never mind.

Travis from Dismemberment Plan came to the same conclusion back in '03. Not surprising considering he comes from inside the Beltway, the only place I've ever heard of a liberal supporting the Iraq war. So, Travis takes the Christopher Hitchens line on the Iraq war, alienates his fans, releases an unbelievably crappy solo album, gets a 0.0 from Pitchforkmedia, and disappears into irrelevancy, never to be heard from again, destined forever to be an insignificant footnote in the history of popular music. Too bad the same fate couldn't be enjoyed by useless folk like Kenneth Pollack. Matt, at least you have fully admitted how wrong and insane you were back in 2003.

mr. yglesias, i knew punk and you, sir, are no punk. mr. t experience is and was a mediocre frat-boy band - never punk. green day 'sold out' commercially, not philosophically, as you (and they)did.
punk is attitude. green day are still punk for their unchanging position against the iraq war.

yglesias on the other hand...just sounds like a generation removed version of joe klein.

Yeah, who ever uses black humor to talk about the absurdity of war and warmongering? Since it's never happened, Matt, you should be ashamed.

OK, OK, so MY ain't Voltaire -- but then sanctimony never goes out of style.

Punk != Punk Rock.

Like coolness, worrying about your own, or debating other peoples', punkness decreases the likelihood that you yourself have the quality in question.

It would actually be useful if MY went deeper into this, with a full essay. There are details it would be good to know -- such as, whether he had been aware of PNAC's pre-9/11 lobbying for an Iraq War, and what he thought at the time about that and about the fact that it was the PNAC people in the administration who pushed for it in 2002.

Also, whether he should have smelled a rat when democracy in Iraq was conflated with a response to 9/11 that involved invading the only Arab country with no terrorists.

And finally, would he buy a used car because the salesman -- whom he knows to be a shady character -- says it was only driven to church on Sundays by a nice old lady?

Genuine punk rock blog, and not stupid as that Mr. T one apparently is: Alice Bag.

MPowell's characterization of any of the comments here as "hate" is ridiculous. We've all made mistakes, but this was a really, really big one and to treat it in this joking way is only okay if you have generally treated it seriously. Obviously I often read Yglesias and I've commented here before, so I don't think he's worthless or anything like that. But it's legitimate to say that his readers deserve a fuller discussion of how he fell for the campaign of lies that produced one of the worst disasters in history -- it so happens that I campaigned very publicly and vocally against the war, consistently and from the very beginning, because I knew that the whole thing was based on lies. And that was not at all difficult to find out.

So here's this young guy who very quickly ended up in a very privileged position, with a prominent pulpit -- for reasons which are not clear -- and he was utterly, completely wrong on the most important issue of his time. I'm sorry Mr. Yglesias, but you really need to address that, and this obscure, joking, silly post, in that context, is offensive.

That does not mean that I hate you.

Oh my god! Is this the biggest bunch of literal minded twats, or what?

Matt, it seems that hardly anyone understood your post. Maybe you need to post a second post "for dummies". Seriously you people have your heads up your asses, which happens to be located up someone else's ass. No offense meant, but you all really cannot understand that this is a "commentary" -- not even a joke -- on why others supported the war. Read: metaphor or analogy or whatever.

Even if we all opposed the war from the get-go you're still a dick if you put yourself on a pedestal because of it.

You wouldn't know punkrock if it spit on you. Anything sincere, original and dyi is punkrock. Invading Iraq was not any of the above.

http://cracksinthesidewalk.com

"Reagan Hates Us!"

"Seriously you people have your heads up your asses, which happens to be located up someone else's ass. No offense meant, "

That's not supposed to be offensive? Please.

Yes, it is obvious that this is a joke. We recognize that. It's a lame, pointless joke. Our objection is that this is unworthy of dismissal with a joke, we are still waiting for MY to explain himself on this, and he needs to.

We do get it. That's exactly the point.

And Paul, learn to talk like a grownup, and engage in civil discourse. That would help a lot. I don't think Mr. Yglesias wishes to be defended in that manner. It certainly doesn't make him long any smarter to have allies as stupid as you.

forgive him, folks. He's just a kid. Trying to find (or make up?) reasons now for what some part of him knew at the time was horseshit is just part of growing up. If he wants to be honest, what he is saying is that the crowd he wanted to be a part of was for the war and the crowd that was against it looked hopelessly out of it and probably hippies. He has become some kind of minor celebrity in blogsville, and consequently, is growing up in public.
Matt, next time, instead of a lame mea culpa, just shave something.

Cervantes:

"Sorry man, but this is the lamest attempt at self-justification I have ever seen. The sad truth is that you just about lost my respect for all time -- the only hope to regain it is a far more serious self-examination and some honest, painful analysis of what exactly TF was wrong with your sorry excuse for a brain. I'm still waiting."

I wouldn't hold you responsible for every post here today, but that qualifies comment qualifies as hating, in the vernacular sense. You're writing off any chance at engagement b/w you two absent a fairly groveling apology. It seems that there is probably some exaggeration there if you do not, in fact, think MY is worthless or whatever.

I haven't been reading MY consistently for the last 5 years, so I don't know what he's posted on the subject in the past. So if you read this as his sole explanation and final word on his explanation of his prewar position, I can see how you might be upset. But I didn't see it that way. He has been arguing for a quite a while from a position I roughly agree with, all the while acknowledging that his original view was in err.

What's worse: being "humorless", or laughing at how you mistakenly supported the biggest foreign-policy disaster in American history? Go tell your punk joke to a brain-damaged vet at Walter Reed. Ha ha.

Oh, you're a charmer. Odds are the guy at Walter Reed supported the war too. There's a good chance he still does.

What would Frank Discussion of The Feederz say? Oh, that's right, he released a song called "Al Queda Airlines", he didn't shit away his philosophy.

What most people do not realize, is that Punk was quite conservative (or more accurately, RW) because the establishment at the time was quite liberal, and punk is anti-establishment. That's why the Pistols had a pro-life song for chrissakes. The only good thing about Reagan taking office is that Punk Rock took a sharp turn left, and that's a good thing.

Okay, fine I'll engage in civilized discourse (although not engaging in civilized discourse does not make one "stupid").

First of all, how old is Matt? He's 26 or something, right? So, that would mean that he was 22 when we went to war with Iraq. Matt is not some big name political figure. He is not some tv talking head bloviating on cable television. He was a college student or recently graduated college student who thought, for whatever reason, that the war in Iraq would be a good idea. It turned out to wrong and Matt acknowledged this rather quickly and is clearly in the anti-Iraq war camp. I do not see why it is so imperative that Matt explain why he chose to support the war in Iraq?

Do we need to have some kind of mass apology and explanation by every American that gave support to the war? I guess my problem with this is that you all who are criticizing Matt for a commentary blog post mocking why others supported the war in Iraq (not a joke, mind you) are acting like a bunch a radical religious evangelicals. Matt must confess his sins if he is to reborn as an anti-war person. I find this ridiculous. This is like some kind of bizarre cleansing ritual filled with over wrought moralizing. Why do you care about the reason that a 22 year old supported the war in Iraq?

Count me in with the minority opinion that this post was pretty damned funny and some of the commenters here really need to get a frickin' life. I'm fairly certain that Matt wrote a serious mea culpa several years ago, folks. I don't think he needs to grovel for our forgiveness anymore.

However, I must say that MTX is a sorry excuse for a punk rock outfit. The real B.A. Baracus would never trust such lame excuses from government officials for starting a war. He operates outside the law. If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire him to contribute to your book on foreign policy.

Paul, he may have been 22, but he's now a major figure, and it goes with the territory. Also, it's a sensitive subject, because several of our favorite bloggers (Drum, Marshall) did the same, and they weren't 22. Some people want to understand this better.

LaFolette -- so what's next? Holocaust jokes?

Spare me the "he's just a kid" argument. "Kids" like him used to be the ones who fought our wars. Now the Harvard grad can support a war and then joke about his little mistake afterwards all on his little keyboard, while other kids get blown up. It's just not funny.

JS(#2) -- I don't see this post as a "joke", so much as a humorous observation that reflects upon a serious point... the political dialogue in this country in 2002 was skewed in favor of war. In fact, it was so far out-of-whack that even anti-establishment punk rockers were buying into the Bush Administration's "regime change" narrative.

It is certainly worth a serious discussion about how the government and media collaborated to marginalize anti-war speech and put pro-war spin into heavy rotation. In fact, there have been a thousand variants of that discussion here on the internets. Some of them took place on this very blog.

I strongly opposed the Iraq War. But I don't see anything to be gained by sending guys like Matt Yglesias, who took a little longer to figure it all out, to re-education camps.

More importantly, I would hate to live in a world that can't laugh at its own absurdity.

Invading another country for no reason at all would be pretty punk rock I agree but Iraq wasn't invaded for no reason at all. I guess that's what one is obliged to believe if one steadfastly believes in the wholesomeness of liberal values and resists the Smedley Butler theory of American foreign occupation. This was all some huge mistake.

That's pretty hilarious.

Regarding my previous comment, I'd like to emphasize that Alice Bag's blog is really, really good.

Come on, you know the words: "A nice pot roast just dropped in..."

That is pretty dissapointing.
As a semi regular of 924 Gilman/The Gilman Street Project in the late 80's I saw MTX many times-including on my 16th birthday in 1989.

But let's be honest Matt- they started going downhill after Big Black Bugs...maybe even before that-The first two LP's are really the only things worth having. Jon Von's exit from MTX was sort of its death blow.

Whats worse- Green Day selling out, or MTX putting out the same lame LP at least three times in a row in the mid to late 90's?

Try Operation Ivy, Stikky, Crimpshrine, and Isocracy instead-
all those bands knew when to break up.

MTV took the anti-establishment punk attitude and sold Pepsi products the other day.

Sold out, two faced apologies. Mall Punks, aka Pop-punk

Other bands could be used to represent the punker, even though doing so might counter Yglesias' point, which is- almost everyone, even punk-rockers, were for the Iraq war! Tongue in cheek, he wonders if he should have listened to some other music, and mentions multi-platinum Green Day. Right, the "who's the real poser" question. Pop-punk is what Yglesias' references when he thinks of punk. The bubble gum, fun, happy music you can shop to and still feel hip, and counter culture.

Power of persuasion.

Rollins tours Army bases. Others join the military. Soldiers watch Apocalypse Now. Soldiers say they listen to punk. Anti-establishment becomes the establishment. Camo is hip, Orange County Republicans listen to Green Day. What's it all about?

Pro-war suburban (middle-class) college educated white men who listened to mall punk/pop-punk music (aka poop punk), find solace in an old idol's web rants while trying to convince themselves they aren't corn feed. (Yes, The Mr. T Experience and even Social D qualify)

Here's a list of dinosaurs, that represent an entirely different type of punk subculture.
The Dicks, DOA (Joey "Shithead" Keithley ran on the Green Party'01 ticket), Biafra (Yes, more Jello!), MIA, Reagan Youth, Circle Jerks, Butthole Surfers, Raw Power! and even RCA signed, Anti-flag to name a few.

and a quote from Kurt Vonnegut:

"We are what we pretend to be, but we better be very careful what we pretend."

Vonnegut was against the war. I knew the war was a con. I still listen to music. Biafra still rants, Kilgore Trout is still sold down at the used book store.

Take care,
Rob

I'm also a little shocked that people feel the need to jump down the throat of Matt. I was always totally against the war, I don't like puppets, I don't take political talking points from punk rock bands, I don't appreciate MTE enough to get the full humor of this post, but JC, people, what a waste of ire.

A long and detailed memoir of an acknowledged bad decision would make good reading and be a useful permalink on the sidebar to forestall future spats.

Meh,

The Sex Pistols were pretty arcehtypic anarchist punks. Didn't stop them from playing a song called, "Belsen was a gas".
Ezra Pound - good poetry, bad politics.

Meh.

Some subspecies of Snobs are more intolerable than others. Sometimes I think you can't get any lower than political idealists; then maybe I'll encounter a food snob. But surely the most insufferable snob is the alt music Snob.

This reminds me of a MTX song called "Swallow Everything." :-) I still love them even though Dr. Frank was wrong and I still love your blog even though you were wrong.

I did listen to Green Day. Interesting. I always thought my ideal musical tastes just happened to correlate with perfect political views, but apparently some sort of causation is involved as well? Is this a positive feedback loop?

Oh yeah, and anyone getting on Matt's case - this post is basically a joke and a comment about Society. This is the flip-side of the Dixie Chick Phenomena.

Oh yeah, and I agree with Saheli - stop jumping down Matt's throat. I went to the rallies and marches, and I always opposed the war.

At some point, those of us who were right about the war need to get off the back of those who were wrong. Particularly when those people have clearly examined their beliefs and really learned a lot. Not a One of us is always right. Many of us have been wrong about a LOT in our political opinions. We need to remember that. Also, we risk becoming arrogant whiners.

Here's the thing about punk music: it blows donkey dick. Seriously. Punk music is garbage. The classic rock that it claimed to be a reaction to is infinitely better music. Sorry, but it clearly is. 100 years from now, people will stil be playing the Beatles and the Stones, while I'd bet a lot of money almost no one listens to punk. Punk was a fashion statement, not a serious musical statement.

Let this be a lesson-- the country got too quickly caught up in a desire for revenge. The rest of the world sympathized, but were wary, as well they should be-- Europe especially having gone through another "war of revenge" (WWI) which turned out terribly.

It really never pays to respond to one's basest instincts, no matter how appealing that feels. No matter how RIGHT it feels.

At the time, I was sort of horrified by the anti-Muslim reaction (and yes, I mourned 9/11-- didn't we all? But mourning doesn't rationally lead to killing non-involved people, no matter how good it feels). It was all so crazy. My point is-- not that everyone, even intelligent liberals, got caught up in it (everyone didn't-- plenty of people said, hey, wait a minute), but rather that those who knew better willingly allowed themselves-- in fact, chose-- to be carried away. I don't know why. Anger makes you feel all manly, I guess. But that's the lesson-- we certainly are capable of staying rational and evaluating the whole situation and deciding what our response should be. I think a whole lot of people decided to be swept away by irrationality. They weren't swept away-- they thought it would be cool or fun or fulfilling to jump right into that tidal wave.

I hope the lesson has been learned.

The Fool: "100 years from now, people will still be playing the Beatles and the Stones"

Kill me now.

"The most extravagant idea that can be born in the head of a political thinker is to believe that it suffices for people to enter, weapons in hand, among a foreign people and expect to have its laws and constitution embraced. No one loves armed missionaries; the first lesson of nature and prudence is to repulse them as enemies."

Maximilien Robespierre, Jan. 2, 1792.

"What could be more self-righteous and arrogant than joking about one's support for this war?"

Lots of things. Yglesias doesn't need to wear a hairshirt and a supposed punk musician mouthing neo-conisms IS pretty funny. 03 wasn't as weird to me as Yglesias makes it sound, but the Paul Berman/Hitchens pro-war liberal thing was certainly in the air. I'll admit I was swayed somewhat by it. The thing people tend to miss here is that Matty Y and Dr. Frank weren't Bush and weren't in Congress. Their opposition would have changed nothing, which I think makes the vets in Walter Reed something Matt's no more responsible than any other American. If you want to rant at someone, I'm sure Hillary has a web site.

Oh, and Dr. Frank more than made up for is pro-war ramblings and frat rock by writing the hilarious "King Dork."

Thief: don't be an ass, thief. If you don't like the Beatles and the Stones you don't like rock and roll. Kill yourself.

The Fool--

Hey, I'll take you up on that bet. 100 years from now, somebody somewhere will be listening to The Clash. And your great-grandchildren will officially owe my great-grandchildren 100 inflation-adjusted dollars.

However, I think we can safely say that nobody will be listening to the Mr. T Experience. Or Wavy Gravy, for that matter.

LaFollette:

There will be someone somewhere listening to just about anything you can name. I'll certainly accept the possibility that there are some people listening to the Clash 100 years from now. But then again they're too melodic to really be punk music. They're certainly not paradigmatic examples thereof. I would say the same about the Talking Heads.

But 100 years from now, not very many people will be listening to the Buzzcocks, Sex Pistols, Richard Hell, Television, X, The Damned, Mission Of Burma, Siouxsie and the Banshees etc.

The Fool:

See, your response simply shows that you don't care much for punk rock, which is fine. Different strokes for different folks. But it's neither historically accurate nor useful to claim that being "melodic" disqualifies a band from being "punk." The punk scene has historically been defined by a certain attitude, a DIY ethic, stripped-down production values, simple arrangements that beginners could bash out in their garage, and a refusal to play ball with the corporate music industry except on the artists' own terms... not by the amount of feedback they generate. The overwhelming majority of punk songs are "melodic" (though they may not always be performed by people capable of carrying a tune.)

I'll be the first to admit that a large amount of absolutely terrible music has been made under the punk banner. But the best of it is brilliant. And frankly, anyone who can listen to Television and claim that they weren't "melodic" doesn't know the meaning of the word. I'm actually quite fond of the Beatles, the Who, and the early Stones... but I think only the Beatles can claim to have made two albums that hold up better than Marquee Moon or London Calling.

Thanks
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