Work Sucks!

Even more?

It's curious how unmotivated people come from the inner city and trailer parks, and how ambitious, successful people come from the suburbs. Food for thought, indeed.

avant garde blogging leaving the narrative nearly finished.

Vance, I think the last word is 'articulate', but who knows. There probably is no right answer.

my post makes no sense now that the post is fixed - scratch it.

"Similarly, my peer group is obviously full of high-skill people who've chosen to embrace the demimonde of journalism rather than put up with the slights and disappointments involved in working at a major law firm or a management consultancy."

For now.

"deploy the coercive apparatus of the criminal justice system in order to mold such men into a more readily pliant worker class"

I think the Soviets tried this. It didn't work out so well.

"unmotivated people come from the inner city and trailer parks, and how ambitious, successful people come from the suburbs"

I think there's three words for that - you're an asshole.

Harvard economist George Borjas has estimated the impact of unskilled immigration on withdrawal from the labor market of the native-born. Borjas concludes, quite reasonably:

"The economic adjustments unleashed by the large 1980-2000 immigrant influx, a labor supply shock that increased the number of workers in the United States by nearly 10 percent and the number of high school dropouts by over 20 percent, reduced the employment rate of black men by about 5.0 percentage points."

He notes the substantial harm immigrant competition has imposed on our black fellow citizens:

"Immigration, therefore, accounts for about a third of the 17.1 percentage point decline in black employment rates. Similarly, the changes in economic opportunities caused by the 1980-2000 immigrant influx raised the incarceration rate of black high school dropouts by 1.7 percentage points, accounting for almost 10 percent of the 19.5 percentage point increase observed during that period."

So, immigration didn't start the corrosion suffered by our black fellow citizens, but it has exacerbated it.

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/060924_crime.htm

Wow, Steve, you actually hate Mexicans more than blacks. I'd never have guessed.

I guess you can blame everything on immigration if you want to. It seems counter-intuitive to me, however, to assume that an increase in immigration causes large numbers of citizens to drop out of high school. If anything, you'd be less inclined to drop out of school if jobs for dropouts are hard to come by.

From the article, "Unfortunately, today's volunteer military is too selective to accept most disadvantaged applicants." Why exactly it's unfortunate that the military has higher standards than it did in the past goes totally unmentioned.

I guarantee you, if we (1) raise the minimum wage to $10-12 an hour and index it to inflation, (2) repeal Taft-Hartley and require card-check recognition of unions and (3) set interest rates at 2% and fix them there, there will eb no shortage of "disadvataged" men taking and holding unskilled jobs. Corporate earnings will be lwoer, no doubt, and it will be impossible to get valet parking or shop at Wal-Mart at 3 in the morning, and no one will suck your dick just 'cause you're a lawyer, but hey, life's full of little tradeoffs liek that.

Thing is, although lawyers and management consultants are the butt of many jokes (and take lots of stress/abuse on the job), one can't deny that those are prestigious positions--the type that people will accept without the threat of incarceration.

One wonders how Irish-American and German-American workers survived the huge "immigration influx" from Italy and Russia of 1890-1914. Seems to me they did pretty well, and likely faced larger increases in the labor pool -- percentage wise -- than those being faced by today's workers. Moreover, the immigration influx from Latin America has coincided with a sustained, impressive growth in the African-American middle class. Indeed, since 1980, there's been a 36 point increase in the percentage of African-Americans holding at least a high school diploma.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_middle_class

This is what happens when it becomes apparent that all the hard work you can muster won't get you anywhere in life. People stop bothering to try. As for arresting people for not working, that's called slavery. If that happens, it's time to start blowing up police vehicles and targeting politicians for assassination, because that's an all-out declaration of a slave state. I'm sorry if that strikes people as extreme, but that's what what people mean when they say the price of freedom. You only get to keep what you're willing to fight for. People like mead want to create a society wherein they get to be the aristocrats and the rest of us exist only to serve them. That's been obvious for a long time now. That's why they won't listen to the public on Iraq, on healthcare, on anything. They don't consider us equals or even real humans. They see us as servants who exist to make their lives easier, they think we should just shut up and let them handle it because they're better than we are.

Lawrence Mead obviously needs to do a tour of America as an itenerant farm worker and day laborer or else STFU. What an asshole.

washerdreyer wonders:

"'Unfortunately, today's volunteer military is too selective to accept most disadvantaged applicants." Why exactly it's unfortunate that the military has higher standards than it did in the past goes totally unmentioned.'"

The US military started giving IQ tests to potential recruits and draftees in 1917 and now has the world's largest database on the correlation between IQ and training/job performance. (Most of the original research in "The Bell Curve" was provided to Herrnstein and Murray by the military.) From 1992 through 2004, the military set a floor of the 30th percentile on the AFQT (about an IQ of 92) for enlistment, taking only 1% of new enlistees with IQs below 92. Today, with the difficulty of recruiting for Iraq, they've boosted the fraction of new enlistees allowed in despite IQs below the 30th percentile to 4%.

During the 1992-2004 years, a large majority of African-Americans and a slight majority of Hispanic-Americans were virtually ineligible to enlist due to low scores on the AFQT. That's a big reason that the death rate among U.S. soldiers in Iraq has been about 70% higher (relative to the young population size) for whites than for minorities.

"So long as you pretend to pay me a living wage- I'll pretend to do a hard day's work." (Old Russian Proverb)

It is, at some level, true that getting ahead requires, if not outright abasement, some level of humility. You'll have to work with people who think they're better than you are and want you to know it. These people, by the random circumstances of chance, may even be in a higher status than you are. Or they may have forgotten the humility it took to get where they are.

But actually coming out and saying "you peons better suck it up and start shining my shoes if you know what's good for you!" is exactly the wrong way to go about fixing the problem. Matt's final point is brilliant--you can't teach humility through arrogant dominance. To the extent that we teach that status and rank is the meaning of life, we cannot be surprised that people who lose at the marketplace end up switching to a game where they can achieve short term victory and power: crime.

But the willingness to keep pride in our hearts even when it damages our self-interest is definitely not concentrated in the poor. It's just that the damage done by other people's pride is always way more obvious than the damage done by our own.

“Owing a debt to society” is an elastic criterion for subjecting someone
to forced labor. Vagrancy laws formerly were used to criminalize nonwork per se, & it’s always possible to find some arbitrary pretext – jaywalking, parking tickets – to justify bondage.

The real crime here is poverty. If a working-age lotto or futures-market winner who'd quit his job after the big check arrived were found to have committed the same petty infraction that would condemn poor men to forced labor, are we to believe that Mead would call for him to be pressed into the chain gang?

Mead is a moral degenerate, & the Post humiliates itself by giving him a voice.

Mead's point is that motivation begins at birth. Those with motivation had the good sense to be born into better off families. The less motivated settled for poor parents.

So, it really is their own fault for being stuck in crappy jobs. If they really wanted a better life they would have gotten off their lazy butts before being conceived.

The maintenance of dignity (keeping it real) is next to impossible for young poor men.

Has anyone else noticed that what had been considered women's work -- nursing, dental tech, office administration, human resources -- has turned into well-paid professional careers? My (female) cousin makes $80,000/year as a surgical nurse and gets to choose her own hours. As for me it had always been my dream to marry woman who made more than me (one of the few economic perks of being a liberal), but for most guys it's a disaster. Especially guys who aren't exactly book smart. I mean, I know couples where the guy is a teacher and the woman is the high-paid attorney, and everybody's cool with that. But the guy who's a parking attendant doesn't have a shot. Might as well check out of the game altogether.

I hate to be too cultural about this, but given the way we glamorize excessive consumption, I can hardly blame people for checking out. So let's bring on the progressive consumption tax. Let's make work pay and make egregious consumption expensive. Sure, you can make $1,000,000/year, but if you spend more than $100,000 a year we ought to tax the hell out of it.

In 1992, when I was 20, I happily worked 60 hours/week for $6.10/hour. I was even proud of it. I won't get out of bed for less than $60/hour now. You can find laziness all around.

It's curious how unmotivated people come from the inner city and trailer parks, and how ambitious, successful people come from the suburbs. Food for thought, indeed.

My son is as suburban as they get, and I don't think there's a single person in trailer park or ghetto any less motivated than he is.

Just saying.

I'm not a political science professor, so maybe I'm missing some subtle point here, but isn't this just a variation of "poor people are poor because they are lazy and have a bad work ethic?"

Oh, and Sailer Boy: illegal immigration depresses wages not because those people are immigrants but because they're illegal. By indulging our nativist impulses and arbitrarily designating entire groups of people quote illegal unquote, we have created a class of sub-minimum wage-earners who have effectively no access to basic worker protections--a class designed to be exploited. And the more we adopt the sort of punitive measures know-nothing xenophobes like you want, the worse it's going to get.

Mead's pretty ridiculous about 'enduring slights' being such a big problem or existing in a vacuum. As any one who as ever watched a game show or seen American Idol, slights become far more slight if you get paid a lot of money to endure them.

If one imports lots of low skill labor the price for low skill labor goes down. Like duuuh. Restrict the supply and the price goes up. Like duuuh.

If someone professes to care about income inequality, but won't prevent preventable increases in the supply of low skilled labor, i.e. the thing that would ameliorate the problem, at the very least income ineqaulity isn't such a person's most important thing. Like duuuh.

Surely by now medical science has perfected a regimen of drugs and neurosurgery to turn the poor into happy worker drones?

This is what I meant when I said Steve Sailer is the sort of racist who looks down on black people without hating them -- the sort of racist who wasn't really considered a racist until about the mid-20th century. He wants blacks to have jobs -- he just doesn't think they're capable of getting them if they have to compete with Mexicans.

My sense is that in days of yore, an unskilled worker could acquire various skills on the job, and expect to gradually move up the company ladder through hard work into more responsible positions - or at least different positions that offered a change from what one had been doing previously. Even if one never cracked the management level, your union and the sheer time you put in guaranteed a rising pay scale and an improving standard of living for your family.

For many now, not only is their job low-paying and shitty, but they can expect to be doing more or less the same low-paying shit forever and ever and ever. That's enough to put a dent in anybody's work ethic - especially when all the delights our society has to offer, which you will never have, are shoved in your face all day by different forms of media.

Without dignity there can be no freedom. As long as we are slaves in spirit, it really doesn't matter how free our bodies are. It is not pride that harms men, but rather it is the lack of respect others show their fellows. Humility is merely the acknowledgment that we are not perfect and do not know anything. It is not to be equated with the debasement of the working class that the management class heaps upon them. That is not an attempt to instill humility, it's an attempt to break America's spirit and turn us into a nation of weak lemmings. Make no mistake, the greater success is had in this venture, the sooner the demise of our nation will come. A nation of those incapable of protecting themselves and unwilling to stand against evil is destined to be ground into dust.

Matt! Matt! Matt!

You greatly misunderstand that the slights and disappointments that one has to endure before getting tenure in a good (or even a bad one these days) university.

Professor Mead knows what he is talking about.

I always kind of guessed you were one silver spooned elitist. This post confirms it! Your one sick puppy buddy. Some of the comments here especially the nerd who thinks suburbia is the greatest over inter city and trailer parks is really eye opening. Your delusional world is just as bad as Bush's. I feel sorry for you.

"Oh, and Sailer Boy: illegal immigration depresses wages not because those people are immigrants but because they're illegal."

Sure! Just like legal immigration and guest worker programs have had no impact on computer programmers' pay in recent years! The Law of Supply and Demand has been repealed because it was Not Nice.

My son is as suburban as they get, and I don't think there's a single person in trailer park or ghetto any less motivated than he is.

I'm suburban, and I can definitely confirm that I am a lazy bastard.

Us poor males should consider going for a poly sci degree amd seek a job teaching at NYU, where obviously even morons can be granted tenure.

We tried what Mead proposes - slavery - but the slaves got housing and food for their labor and some big "slights and disappointments that work involves." Today, minimum wage often fails to pay for shelter and food, but one won't get beaten for sleeping at the Mission, yet.

And what's with tying it to welfare reform? What exactly is the 'welfare' such men receive?

The 1.5 million men he singles out are not a monolith of untalented, unskilled and unmotivated people unable to tough it out on a job. Many lack even the emotional support network that custodial parents might have. Compelling people already alienated to perform like trained monkeys under threat of penalty will produce a lot of pain and damn few solutions.

I dunno, guys. There seems to self-evidently be a difference between the work ethics of the average poor low-skill American and the work ethics of the comparably situated immigrant from most any country. Presumably this is because it takes quite a bit of effort and desire to emigrate in the first place, but it's still something worth pointing out.

Wow, people apparently think its acceptable to explicitly call for the return of (at worst) slavery, or (at best) debtor's prison. This is why neo-liberals seem so silly to me. Instead of combating debtor's prisons and the goons who support them, they think its more beneficial to attack teachers unions. Unbelievable.

Tom Hilton and Steve Sailer:

"0h, and Sailer Boy: illegal immigration depresses wages not because those people are immigrants but because they're illegal. By indulging our nativist impulses and arbitrarily designating entire groups of people quote illegal unquote, we have created a class of sub-minimum wage-earners who have effectively no access to basic worker protections--a class designed to be exploited."

Two thoughts here:

1) Tom, these illegals aren't "sub-minimum wage-earners". They are usually paid considerably more than minimum wage. For example, this NY Times article, Who Has the Work? He Who Finds the Busboys; Heeding a Call for Mexican Kitchen Labor, about a Greek immigrant who runs an agency supplying diners with illegal immigrant busboys and dish washers, notes that the illegals are paid $10 per hour (they have to kick back 20% to the job agent though).

2) Steve, if illegal immigration were cut off, I don't think low-skilled black workers would benefit much. They'd get a shot at more low-skilled jobs, but probably not be able to keep them. See, for example, This WSJ article,An immigration raid aids blacks for a time, about how a chicken slaughterhouse turned to blacks when the Feds raided them for hiring illegals. They ended up having to import Hmongs from other states.

Matt Yglesias black men are "instinctively averse" to work? Sounds pretty racist to me. What does color have to do with it?

Francine, I think that Matt meant that poor black men are averse to demeaning work just like everyone else is, given that the precediging paragraph uses him and his friends as examples of the same phenomenon.

Matt has an unhealthy interest in Steve Sailer, but I don't think there's any reason to call him a racist.

If it's hard to fill low-paid jobs, that's a sign they're too, well, low-paid. That's all he's saying.

Matt has an unhealthy interest in Steve Sailer

yeah, what's up with that anyway? Matt is about 4.7 times smarter than Sailer, yet he seems intrigued by his pseudo-science and pretzel-logic.

IIRC, at one point in Reconstruction, some Southern states required all blacks to be committed to a labor contract. Those that weren't under contract to work for someone could be arrested and--ha!--forced to work on a chain gang.

I would dig out my copy of Foner to look up the details, but my work discipline has deteriorated, and I cannot endure the slights and disappointments that research involves.

Lots of pretty clear racism in this post. Racism in the polite style of the CCC or the gated neighborhood, the racism that may even pity those ethnically challenged masses whose submission creates our own perilous middle class status as the wealthy elites concentrate ownership of assets into the tightest, rightest, and whitest hands. Classism is also clearly evident in that it is a set of elites who benefit from their Caucasian persuasion complaining about how their inferiors won't work as hard as the elites think they ought. The elites do not realize, probably for their own emotional health, what a bunch of dickheads they appear to be to those who have experienced working life from a non-elite perspective. Sailing the seas of stupidity would include ignoring the biases of military intelligence testing (if I don't qualify I don't have to die? Do the C/B ratio or have a menial do the math for you!), ignoring Murray's history of white supremacist writing, and pretending that people are avoiding hard work because they are lazy and not being presumed incapable of slaving away at scut work because they have an ethnic handicap.
Where unions have failed, ethnic groups have taken over just as they did in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Italian Hall fire, anybody, from when Italians weren't white? Yglesias is one of those names that may be an honorary white person but also could be the subject of militia group interest depending on skin tone. Why not return to the 19th and early 20th century notions of race as determinant of intelligence and character, since we seem to be repeating the Gilded Age complete with a Spanish American style colonial war and Credit Mobiliere style corruption?
Again we see the class war rearing its ugly head, as the elites have screwed the goose that layed the golden egg: through their myopia, greed, and ignorance they are determined to ride the decline out on the backs of the working poor. Notice the planned exodus of Bush and Cheney with land buys in Paraguay and the Halliburton move to UAE. They have spotted the rat lines like the SS saw Argentina.
We have barely adapted to the notion of a service economy as robots and automation replaced hourly union workers in manufacturing, and as we create an America unattractive to educated individual our ability to brain drain other countries is declining. Yahoo and Google are now arms of the security apparatus as ATT continues to be in its return to monopoly status. These are perilous times for humanity and I imagine that the professor will have time to ponder the error of his ways in the Hooverville 2.0 to follow the mortgage lending readjustments to come.

One wonders how Irish-American and German-American workers survived the huge "immigration influx" from Italy and Russia of 1890-1914. Seems to me they did pretty well, and likely faced larger increases in the labor pool -- percentage wise -- than those being faced by today's workers.

Have you ever actually read a history of the Gilded Age? Savage income inequality was the norm; the working class lived in squalor, and violent labor unrest was common.

I'm certainly glad they let my ancestors back in then, but the hard fact is that the American citizens who already lived here at the time would have been better off shutting down Ellis Island.

As for Lawrence Mead, his "argument" is beneath contempt. It sounds like he wants to bring back Parchman's Farm.

They offered me the office,
Offered me the shop,
They said I better take anything they got,
Do you want to make tea at the BBC,
Do you really wanna be a cop?

Biff Spaceman - That was hysterical. I really enjoyed that. You must be exhausted. Did you slump over your keyboard like Don Music when you were finished? God Bless you, Biff, and your important work.

Yeah, those "elites" really screwed up a good thing. It used to be awesome to be poor! Now it sucks. Have fun in graduate school you fucking hard-on.

"One wonders how Irish-American and German-American workers survived the huge "immigration influx" from Italy and Russia of 1890-1914. Seems to me they did pretty well,"

Do you know any American economic history at all? They did pretty well *eventually* -- like, after mass immigration was cut off in 1925. The actual 1890-1914 period was one of economic unrest, repeated depressions, and tough times at the bottom of the income scale.

Whoops, Josh already made this point above.

They did pretty well *eventually* -- like, after mass immigration was cut off in 1925. The actual 1890-1914 period was one of economic unrest, repeated depressions, and tough times at the bottom of the income scale.

AFAIK, real wages for Americans were significantly higher in say, 1910 (well before "mass immigration" ended) than in, say, 1870. This is especially true if one takes into consideration improvements in technology and quality. I doubt any era in American history featured happy times for those "at the bottom of the income scale." Moreover, much of the unrest and labor/capital clashes evident during this period were at least as prevalent in industrial areas that were not experiencing immigration, and were indeed undergoing significant net emigration. Like Russia, for example. Finally, much of the income inequality of the era was driven by those at the top pulling away -- by huge increases in the production of wealth, in other words (and not by masses of newcomers pulling everbody down). Again, similar trends were evident in European countries witnessing net outflows in population.

In short, there were troubles, yes. But immigration had little or nothing to do with them.

Jeez. I give up. Clueless people writing papers suggesting coercion to create a PLIANT WORKFORCE to be published by an actual, real think tank. It's nothing new that the Washington Post publishes dreck but my already fading regard for Brookings just fell over the cliff.

This is the 'quality' of today's academics?

And for the elderly, how close are we to Logan's Run?

As a nation and a society, we are so screwed.

A guy named mantooth talking about hardons is too San Francisco for me.
If you go back and have somebody read you some H.G. Wells you might notice that eventually the poor and downtrodden get mad about being poor and downtrodden and babyfaced eggheads like Dr. Meade are suddenly put to pitchfork and torch. Morlocks vs. Eloi. The middle class has been squeezed financially into absorbing a great deal of additional financial burden in order to directly remunerate the executives who run companies into the ground to steal the brand, fire the employees, and replace that great Sunbeam toaster you remember with an inferior copy produced in a slave shop in the Far East. In the meantime, the employees who have been let go get to reestablish their hierarchy on an open market where the last hired (ethnic minorities finally getting some justice and equality) are the first fired and dumped back into a service economy wherein no one will pay a lot for a muffler, or a tasty espresso drink, or a cheezburger. Creating a "Lord of the Flies" environment coupled with a liquidity crunch and a future of tight credit, stagflation and Friedman's "Flat" world, the bottom in America will be competing with the absolute economic bottom, where only pygmy tribesmen off the grid in the deepest forests will be paid lower until they get a UAE owned port terminal installed to load crates of handicrafts and monkey meat for sale to the gated communities of the first world.
The wealthy may rationalize themselves into thinking that having all the marbles is just, right, and fair, and that any means they undertook to achieve and maintain wealth and privilege was acceptable, but Marie Antoinette, Nicholas II, and others found the end result unsatisfactory despite their wealth and fame.

Mantooth. That is pretty funny if you say it out loud. Mantooth wants to deny the cycles of history! Mantooth commands you to go back to your deep fryers! Does Mantooth equal Zardoz?

So, Biff Spaceman (really, should you be making fun of anyone's name?), racism is bad, but homophobia = good? Got it.

If you could direct me to some of these history books you speak of I would appreciate it. You know, the ones that cover a fictional world in the distant future. Zardoz? Morlocks? People who write like you(and I hope you don't talk like that) never convince anyone of anything. It's like you read some words that impressed you and decided to put them all together at once.

But hey, good luck with your revolution! I hope you don't run into anyone too "San Francisco"!

Ignoring the rampant racism and so on, lets talk "respectable policy" for a second. Brookings is the left end of the DC think tank world. And a Brookings scholar is essentially saying we should bring in slavery for lower class (read: black) people that don't have a job? WTF? Shouldn't Brookings people be talking about a living wage as incentive for a job? Improved education? Unionization? Giving OSHA some actual teeth?

Isn't it time for some voluntary eugenics at this point? Perhaps by offering a financial incentive to encourage certain young women to accept temporary sterilization? Not to do so is analogous to moping up your bathroom floor before you stop your toilet from overflowing.

We have decades of statistics to work with. What are the chances that the son of a poor single woman without a high school diploma will grow up to be a tax-paying, law-abiding citizen? What are the chances that her son will grow up to be a criminal or a welfare recipient?

After decades of spending hundreds of billions of dollars on social programs, no solution has been found to break the cycle of poverty for the vast majority of poor Americans. People who make poor life decisions often have kids who make poor life decisions and negatively impact the quality of life for others.

Assuming that there was a liberal media bias, we didn't believe the media, even though they were correct. The obvious solution, now that the media is vindicated and we were proven wrong, is to correct the liberal media bias which, as I just stated, only existed in our imaginations.

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From the article, "Unfortunately, today's volunteer military is too selective to accept most disadvantaged applicants." Why exactly it's unfortunate that the military has higher standards than it did in the past goes totally unmentioned.

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thanks

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thanks you.good site and news.

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I like very much the writings and pictures and explanations in your adress so I look forward to see your next writings. I congratulate you.

Thank you very

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Oyun oyunlar oyun oyna gibi kelimeler toner kartuş konuları yer almakta bedava oyunlar
2 Oyunculu Oyunlar - Yetenek Oyunları - Dövüş Oyunları - Aksiyon Macera Oyunları - Nişancılık Oyunları - Spor Oyunları - Yarış Oyunları - Zeka Hafıza Oyunları - oyun çocukta doğuştan gelen bir tabiat ve Allah'ın onda yarattığı bir içgüdüdür. Bunun temelinde çocuğun fiziksel gelişiminin mükemmel bir tarzda gelişimdirMotor Oyunları - Mario Oyunları - Savaş Oyunları - Strateji Taktik Oyunları - Yemek Pişirme Oyunları - Dekor Oyunları - Boyama Kitabı Oyunları - 3 Boyutlu Oyunlar - Hugo Oyunları - Sonic Oyunları - Webcam Oyunları - Peri Güzellik Oyunları - Battleon Oyunları - Süper Oyunlar - İlizyon Oyunları - Komik Oyunlar - Teletabi Oyunları - Giysi Giydirme oyunları - Makyaj yapma oyunları -çocuğun en özenli işidir. Yetişkin için iş ve kazanç ne ise onun için de oyun odur... Dış dünyanın kavranılması öğrenilmesi ve hayata hazırlanmanın en ... Kız oyunları - Çocuk Oyunları - işletme oyunları - varmısın yokmusun - Bebek Oyunları - Oyun - Animasyon - Oyun Oyna - Oyunlar - Oyun Cambazı - Bedava Oyunlar - motosiklet dergisi - animasyon - renkli toner tozları - fotokopi toneri - kartuş - toner - boş toner - boş kartuş - toner dram - toner chip - toner tozu - toner dolumu - kartuş dolumu - kartuş dolum malzemeleri - kartuş dolum makinesi - renkli toner dolumu - Bedava Oyun - Kral oyun

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Thankss..

Thanks Best Regards
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thnks