Bulls-Heat

Everyone should hope that that something crazy happens so we can all hear Isiah talk about how Eddy Curry is really a hall of famer.

In regards to your Toronto Loses post:

For folks who see blog titles in their RSS readers and Tivo the games, please don't include game results in your blog titles. Thank you.

"The decision not to include Luol Deng in a deal for Pau Gasol is looking perfectly reasonable to me."

Disagree.

Just because Miami is vulnerable due to Wade's injury, and just because Deng is a wonderful player doesn't add up to thinking a Deng-Gasol deal wasn't the smart move for the architecture of the Bulls.

I can't disagree with anything in the above post. I really thought that the Bulls had made a mistake on the Gasol trade, but that's an opinion that's harder and harder to justify. Worst of all, Deng isn't just a Bull, he isn't just a mensch, he doesn't just come of age under the awful Skiles, but he's a Dukie. Just unfathomable.

I think Deng isn't a real Dukie. That must be some kind of bad rumor.

Didn't see the game, but obviously Wade didn't play well enough for MIA to win. What strikes me from the box score is that Miami got killed on the boards. That's one of he main problems with Shaq's decline - he isn't as good on the boards any more.

Didn't see the game, but obviously Wade didn't play well enough for MIA to win.

Change that to:

obviously the Bulls played great defense on Wade

(Sefolosha's a name that might get some attention the next two years)

"I really thought that the Bulls had made a mistake on the Gasol trade, but that's an opinion that's harder and harder to justify."

I'm truly baffled why you and Matthew think anything that has transpired in the past few months have justified the lack of acquiring Gasol.

The issue was never that the Bulls were going to suck with Deng. The issue was always that having to rely on Deng and Gordon for your offensive execution down the stretch would be unreliable in the playoffs against elite teams.

The Bulls may be able to beat a banged-up Heat without a player like Gasol, but the issue of their limited long-term ceiling with their current core remains salient.

I'm truly baffled why you and Matthew think anything that has transpired in the past few months have justified the lack of acquiring Gasol.

Well, they were hanging onto Deng on "tremendous upside potential" grounds, which seemed dubious to me, but he's looking more to me like he's living up to that potential.

Also, I mean, how good is Gasol, really? When we were talking about the Bulls making a deal for Garnett that was one thing, but I'm not that impressed with Gasol who I just don't think is radically superior to Deng.

Petey,

First, I have a feeling you're not placing enough weight in the age factor. Deng is five years younger than Gasol. That's a good chunk of time. Deng is 22.

Second, Deng is an excellent rebounder and has shown a willingness absent in a lot of players to change his game. Two or three years from now, I suspect Deng will be getting a lot of his points by posting up.

Third, things change. You never know who will come on the market. Paxson has proven to have a very good eye for talent. They could always add a good post player through trades or free agency. So, it's not like the Bulls can't end up with a good post player.

"Well, they were hanging onto Deng on "tremendous upside potential" grounds, which seemed dubious to me"

OK. Now I understand, but you guys are still wrong on the larger point.

I thought Deng's "tremendous upside potential" was quite likely, but I simultaneously thought sacrificing him to get Gasol was still a no-brainer. And I continue to think both of those things are true.

A core of Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng has a shot of being a very good team. But it's hard to see them winning titles without a core addition. And they're going to soak up your salary cap once they get their second contracts.

a,

Your fandom leaves you a horribly inaccurate evaluator of Chicago's talent level and prospects.

"Also, I mean, how good is Gasol, really? When we were talking about the Bulls making a deal for Garnett that was one thing..."

From the Bulls perspective, I thought Gasol vs Garnett was essentially a wash. Garnett's got a higher talent level, but Gasol has a serious age and contract advantage.

Your fandom leaves you a horribly inaccurate evaluator of Chicago's talent level and prospects.

I don't believe that I evaluated any other player than Deng. If you disagree with my take on Deng, fine. But you addressed me with ad hominem nonsense, and didn't address any point.

A core of Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng has a shot of being a very good team. But it's hard to see them winning titles without a core addition.

I, too, have a hard time seeing a Hinrich-Gordon-Deng core winning a championship. But I also have a hard time seeing a Hinrich-Gordon-Gasole core winning a championship.

On the other hand, I see some chance that over the next couple of years either Deng (who's not only young, but started playing basketball late in life) or Tyrus Thomas or whoever Chicago gets with the Knicks' pick will be good enough to put them in that position. Under the circumstances, I don't think the Gasol trades that were on the table made sense. You'd marginally improve the Bulls while hurting their odds of getting lucky in the future.

From the Bulls perspective, I thought Gasol vs Garnett was essentially a wash. Garnett's got a higher talent level, but Gasol has a serious age and contract advantage.

The difference is that if this deal had been made mid-season, Hinrich / Gordon / Nocioni / Garnett / Wallace is a contender for the 2007 NBA Championship.

"I don't believe that I evaluated any other player than Deng."

Hisorically, your comments on this blog lead me to believe that your fandom leaves you a horribly inaccurate evaluator of Chicago's talent level and prospects.

"On the other hand, I see some chance that over the next couple of years either Deng (who's not only young, but started playing basketball late in life) or Tyrus Thomas or whoever Chicago gets with the Knicks' pick will be good enough to put them in that position."

The problem is that no matter how well the current core develops over the next couple of years, I have trouble seeing them reliably executing on the offensive end down the stretch in the playoffs against elite teams.

I think they can be very good, but I think they have a low ceiling even if everything goes right for them.

I think MY's hit the major points. Really, the point is that Deng and Thomas may be better than I expected, and Gasol not enough of a post presence to turn the Bulls into constant contenders. What the Bulls need is a First Banana. I'm not sure Gasol is one.

I think they can be very good, but I think they have a low ceiling even if everything goes right for them.

You're acting as if Gasol is the only chance the Bulls will ever have to get a big man. Those kind of situations arise every year. Someone's unhappy and demands to be traded, a team decides to rebuild and deals away big salaries, etc. Dealing away their best player isn't the answer. The answer is to continue adding solid talent and wait for a good opportunity.

"You're acting as if Gasol is the only chance the Bulls will ever have to get a big man. Those kind of situations arise every year."

Maybe. Maybe not.

Who's gonna be available next year? Probably Zach Randolph. Maybe Jermaine O'Neal. I'd rather have Gasol than either of those guys, and they're not guaranteed to be available anyway.

I appreciate what Paxson has done so far, I just think he was risk-averse to the point of foolishness during the Gasol window.

Chicago fans are whining bitches. That was the worst officiated game I've seen all season. The whole game centered around charging calls. Each team was more worried about working the refs than excuting. And Nocioni has to be the biggest dickhead in the Association since Bill Laimbeer. His idea of a pick is called clipping in the NFL. God, I hate playing Chicago...fuck!

Deng did well with Hinrich on the bench all game, but let's not get carried away. He's not leading anyone to a championship.

At least MY has decided to curse the Bulls with his support, so now we got that goin' for us.

Chicago fans are whining bitches.

Considering what followed in your post, I'll consider that an attempt at irony.

Chicago fans are whining bitches.

Sorry, a, don't mean you. Meant the crowd that was booing and cheering the wistle instead of the play.

I think I take Jermaine O'Neal over Gasol for a title run in the short term. But, then again, I've not really seen all that much of Gasol.

Also, I mean, how good is Gasol, really?

Exactly. It's baffling to me, Petey, that you see Gasol as this guy who will get them over the hump in the playoffs. What has Gasol ever done in the playoffs?

I'd also like to point out (with love in my heart) that the only evidence that the Bulls are worse than people think is that, well, you think so. I mean people can disagree on the potential of Luol Deng and Tyrus Thomas. I feel as if you just want to shout down people who don't agree with your assesment of those two players.

I'd like to state for the record that I don't think Tyrus Thomas will ever be a good low-post scorer.

He's way to eager to get the ball in the air. Footwork isn't decent and he can't play with his back to the basket. It's rare that a player develops the ability to play with his back to the basket. At the very least, they begin with a good ability to use head and up fakes to get around the defender. Thomas hasn't shown anything in that area.

"I'd like to state for the record that I don't think Tyrus Thomas will ever be a good low-post scorer."

You're likely right, but he is still very, very young for low-post scoring talents to show.

But even if you are right, I think he's still got a decent chance to be a phenomenal player in some other areas.

Tangentially to a discussion of his potential, I must say that he really looked good down the stretch of this season.

"It's baffling to me, Petey, that you see Gasol as this guy who will get them over the hump in the playoffs."

I see Gasol as a low-end of the elite low-post scorer just entering his prime who could combine with the rest of the Bulls young talent to have a decent shot in May and June for years to come.

Chicago fans are whining bitches. That was the worst officiated game I've seen all season. The whole game centered around charging calls. Each team was more worried about working the refs than excuting. And Nocioni has to be the biggest dickhead in the Association since Bill Laimbeer. His idea of a pick is called clipping in the NFL. God, I hate playing Chicago...fuck!

Ah, the irony of Miami fans complaining about poor officiating...

Good games today.

I think I'll get some sunshine tomorrow and skip the two afternoon games. Both of the late games should be interesting.

Like Kurtis Blow says, they're playing basketball.

The beginning of the first round is the high holy days of my religion.

I think it is fair to think Deng is better than Gasol, right now.

I don't want to hear about x, y, or z stat either. Watch the tape. If Deng were fist banana in Memphis, his numbers would be pretty nasty. And Gasol, while being a rare passable post presence, has really shown no signs of being particularly special. I don't think he has won a playoff game, has he?

Miami really should die. Shaq grants them all an umbrella of officiating preference. As soon as he is gone, so is Riley, and so is the halo effect for Wade.

Peter Vecsey sees what I see about the Powder Blues...

As a suffering Knicks fan who yearns for the glory days of Ewing-Oakley-Starks, I have to remind myself that the Bulls are not the Jordan Bulls, so I don't have to hate them anymore. I can actually cheer for them in the playoffs as an up-and-coming team. And, of course, it's always a good day when Pat Riley loses.

Petey,

One of the main reasons the Bulls didn't acquire Gasol is because Paxson didn't think they could effectively work Gasol into the lineup this season.

Without Deng, the bulls become really weak at SF. And a frontcourt of noc, gasol, and wallace would be weird. Basically stretching three PF across positions they weren't meant for.

I think in a year, the Gasol trade would have paid off. But in a year, the Bulls might not need Gasol (depending on how the draft goes). So I don't think it was an unreasonable decision.

Also, I actually don't think Gasol is that much better than Deng.

We don't need Gasol's rebounding or defense. We have both in spades. What we really need is efficient offense. What's desirable about a good low-post player is that they can consistently score efficiently. But here's the thing: Deng is a very efficient scorer. In fact (and this will definitely change once Durant is in the league), he's the best mid-range player in the league. This season he shot at 51.7 for 18.8. Which is pretty uncanny for someone who relies on slashing and mid-range shots. Gasol shot 54% for 20. So, Gasol would have brought us a slight improvement in offense. Of course, the tradeoff would be a slightly less efficient perimeter defense. So I just don't think it was that clear cut.

Petey's love for the powder blues just began to make more sense to me. I didn't realize Nene had started playing so well.

That really does give them another dimension. Of course, he could go down for the playoffs when he gets of the bus, but that's another story.

Did Antwann Jamison have some work done? He looks like Joan Rivers

What's desirable about a good low-post player is that they can consistently score efficiently.

That's not the only thing that's good about a good low-post player. At a minimum, being able to pass the ball inside means and force the defense to collapse means that a good low-post scorer should allow teammates to become more efficient scorers.

Petey. Peter Vescey? Come on. dude's a malcontent hanger-on and notorious spurs hater.

Powder Blues is such a ridiculous nickname. How anyone can say or write that with a straight face is beyond me.

SomeCallMeTim,

that's a good point. But I still don't believe slight improvement in offensive efficiency would dramatically offset the loss in defensive efficiency.

Basically, if the current lineup can't get it done, a slightly improved lineup would also fall short.

I don't think Gasol is the man to take us to the promise land.

"And Gasol, while being a rare passable post presence, has really shown no signs of being particularly special. I don't think he has won a playoff game, has he?"

Sorry, that's just dumb. "Gasol" didn't play playoff games, the Memphis Grizzlies did. And they were, what, the 8 seed in the West? What is Pau Gasol supposed to do that's going to make that team beat San Antonio, Phoenix, or Dallas?

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