Does Truth Conquer All?

"And, now, the Armenian cause has been boosted by people looking for a kitchen sink's worth of arguments for keeping Turkey out of the EU."

Who even needs to mention the Armenian genocide to be against adding Turkey to the EU? Why would a modern, democratic, secular-Christian group of nations want to add a country that hasn't become secular or fully democratic after a century of trying? Especially when that country shares land borders with Iran, Syria and other undemocratic, Muslim countries? How exactly would the EU benefit from this? More unskilled Muslim immigrants for France? How'd that work out last time?

Especially when that country shares land borders with Iran, Syria and other undemocratic, Muslim countries?

This is just a nonce argument. If a country shouldn't be allowed into the EU because it borders countries that shouldn't be allowed in, and Turkey shouldn't be allowed in, then Greece shouldn't have been allowed in 25 years ago, and Bulgaria shouldn't have been allowed in this year. And then repeat the argument for countries bordering them.

Being a jew and all, with relatives and friends' relatives who fled or died in the holocaust and who also thinks genocide is a pretty bad thing, i say this with trepidation. But why does the US congress need to "recognize" the armenian genocide. Besides within turkey, there's no where in the world where information about it is suppressed or skewed. WE all know it happened, contra baudrillard - the armenian genocide did happen. But, why this resolution, why now. Is it because the armenian community has been agitating for this for years and now has found institutional support among turkeyphobes wanting them out of the EU. Now, if you are armenian, i can see where you'd think my words were callous, and i agree, if someone said this about the holocaust, i'd think the same. But i do think the US government has a responsibility to protect its citizens and promote the overall strategic well being and safety of them and their interests - which seems to me to lead to supporting Turkey and not pissing them off over some perfunctory legislation "recognizing" an event we all now happened. Why align ourselves with the nativist and borderline racists in the EU who don't want the world's largest muslim democracy in the world's largest, and wealthiest, and most liberal democratic club. We have to pick our battles, and times for our battles, and now turkey needs our help, not this.

Sorry if this seems a little ranty, but i was just feeling like getting my mearsheimer realist on tonight.

ps GO WARRIORS - CANT DENY THAT SHIT, DALLAS!

Is it because the armenian community has been agitating for this for years and now has found institutional support among turkeyphobes wanting them out of the EU.

I think it's fair to say that Armenian-Americans have more lobbying power than Turkish-Americans. Being a diaspora community has that effect.

But I also suspect something else that Matt doesn't mention: that Armenian-Americans are a little weary of having their grandparents' suffering served up as the perennial appetizer in Twentieth Century Genocide Studies. That's to say, it's considered important in reference to the Holocaust, and I'd take a small bet that more Americans, at least, know it from that context than could point to where the Armenians were actually living at the time of the genocide.

And with more trepidation, I turn to this:

But why does the US congress need to "recognize" the armenian genocide.

Because not doing so implicitly muddies a historical narrative of the Holocaust that uses that Hitler line as its pivot.

Because not doing so implicitly muddies a historical narrative of the Holocaust that uses that Hitler line as its pivot.

Hmm, i don't really get what you're saying here, think you could unpack it for the less enlightened (aka me)

and i don't really seem to get what point that map was trying to illuminate. I'm sorry for not being so up to date on this discussion, but my knowledge of the armenian genocide comes from a. studying the holocaust (and learning about the armenian genocide in basically the same way pseudo described) b. reading articles abour orpan pamuk and c. reading the peace to end all peace.

I think domestic lobbies have played a much greater role in pushing for the recognition of the Armenian genocide than the need to stop Turkey from joining the EU.

As a Greek however - who tentatively supports Turkey's entrance- I think that over the long run it would be beneficial for Turkey herself to recognize the Armenian genocide. Turkey became a nation under the most violent and extreme of circumstances and recognizing that which right now is taboo to speak of will help her foster a more western, genuinely secular identity.

To Matt z

Here's an interesting article by the Columbia University historian Mazower:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v23/n03/mazo01_.html

Well, I think Hitler was right though.

Most Americans do not remember or even recognize the ethnic cleansing of Palestine in 1948. Which is a good reason why Israel is now repeating it again silently slowly murdering the whole Palestinian population in a criminal system of Bantustans, while our leaders talk about the importance of the PA denouncing terror, while they are being liquidated as a people.

"Hitler was right"..."ethnic cleansing of Palestine"..."liquidated as a people"...

At which point is someone allowed to call antisemitism antisemitism without "poisoning the debate" or some such?

can anyone tell me why Bush et al have gone to such great lenghts to support Turkey's EU bid?

I think what Hitler's trying to say here is that history will forgive Germany brutal measures -- no matter how brutal -- as long as Germany wins.

That sounds about right (and note that Matthew is also effectively saying "Hitler was right" -- like talboito -- in the sense that this historical insight was correct, not that he was right to exterminate millions of people of various unter-ethnicities and -inclinations).

There remains an interesting question, though, as to why the US has acknowledged certain similar acts of oppression which no "temporal power" compelled it to acknowledge. The US apologized for the internment of Japanese-Americans during WWII. It has institutionalized the teaching of the white man's genocidal extermination of American Indians. Neither of those groups possess anything like the political strength that would be necessary to compel government recognition of their claims. So why did it happen?

My own feeling is that as a result of successive struggles for acknowledgment and participation by political groups in the US which *were* powerful, in terms of numbers or resources (blacks, women, various immigrant nationalities, etc.), a dynamic of contention for public acknowledgment of moral grievance was established which could then be tapped by other groups, and which can call upon the reflexive allegiance of a kind of constituency of the aggrieved -- Jews feeling bound to support Japanese-American claims, blacks to support American Indian claims, and so on, each to defend the principles behind their own claims. But on an international level there's not much of a structure for channeling those kinds of claims or building that kind of sympathy.

...the reflexive allegiance of a kind of constituency of the aggrieved...

This may be true, but empathy is different from action. I think it's more likely that burgeoning activists from these later groups were simply inspired by the initial civil rights movements.

Reagan apologised for the internment of Japanese-Americans in 1988, a whole generation after the civil rights era. And you're mistaken about the Japanese-American lobby, I'd say it's quite influential.

But on an international level there's not much of a structure for channeling those kinds of claims or building that kind of sympathy.

To whatever extent international solidarity in the face of moral grievances is possible, I'd say the Muslim world pulls it off rather well.

talboito said,

"At which point is someone allowed to call antisemitism antisemitism without "poisoning the debate" or some such?"

How is calling attention to the expulsion of one group by another group anti-semitism? Why is any and all criticism of Israeli policies- I didn't say Jewish policies- considered anti-semitic?
Doing so reminds me of Arundhati Roy's criticism of the term "anti-American". She asked, and I paraphrase, "What EXACTLY does anti-American mean? Does it mean you're against the Bill of Rights? That you have a problem with redwood trees or you hate the Empire State Building or baseball?"
It's been a while since I heard her but I think you get the meaning.

The answer to talboito's question is, "You may call something anti-semitic when it is ACTUALLY anti-semitic, knucklehead."

Saying "All Jews have big noses" is bigoted and anti-semitic.
Saying "Jews deserved to get massacred in medieval Europe because they poisoned the wells" is anti-semitic.
Saying "Jews are crafty moneymakers" is a compliment founded in bigotry and is thus anti-semitic.
But calling attention to facts recognized by all objective observers is NOT anti-semitic. Is it anti-American to say "America ethnically cleansed large parts of the the American midwest and west"? Is it, talboito?
OK, you go ponder on this for a while and then come back with some interesting, knucklehead.

Although interestingly the Kurdish role in this genocide is almost completely forgotten, a large proportion of the was commited by Kurds rather than Turks per se (The whole area was once part of the Ottoman Empire).

Thinking a bit more this is also true to some extent with The Holcaust where the part played by some locals outside of Germany tends to be similarly overlooked.

truth has certainly found itself incapable of conquering your partisanship as evidence by your poorly written, lie drenched posts.

Kurt Vonnegut, now in heaven, said when he was still with us that the message of the Bible is "Don't mess with people with connections".

Re adam

Mr. adams' (alias David Duke) big lies would make Joseph Goebbels proud. The charge that the State of Israel has committed genocide in the past or is committing genocide now against the Palestinians is an example of the type of rhetoric that todays antisemites employ. Not even critics of Israel such as Noam Chomsky make such outrageous claims. This is the type of crap one sees on neo-Nazi web sites like David Dukeor in the rantings of people like Norman Finkelstein. Mr. adam, you are a god damn f***ing liar.

Tim Bassett:

Actually, these facts are well-remembered by most Armenians and Jews. Most Armenians know the role of Kurds in their genocide, and most Jews remember the zeal with which many Ukrainians, Poles, etc. participated in the Final Solution.

If Turkey were a more advanced and civilized nation, it would acknowledge and apologize for what it did to the Armenians. But it's not. Adding it to Europe in the hopes that it will become one would be folly.

Re "the type of rhetoric that todays antisemites employ",
one would think that someone with such high regard for the truth as SLC would note that the annual income for Palestinians is estimated by the CIA to be around $1,500 --due to the destruction wrought by periodic Israeli incursions.

Not genocide really. More like slow starvation. Perhaps we should put a memorial up on the National Mall to lament the plight of the Palestinians.

I'm sure Congress will approve the motion in the future-- if the day ever arrives that CAIR can write out $100 million in campaign donations. Of course, if that happens, I'm sure that US courts will also fall over themselves to support lawsuits by Palestinians for reparations from the Government of Israel.
Maybe in the year 2100.

In the meantime, perhaps the German government could put up a memorial to the Holocaust of the American Indian in Berlin. Or perhaps a memorial to those hundreds of thousands of Japanese women and children burned alive in their own body fat from the napalm bombings and atomic bombings of 60+ Japanese cities in WWII -- an event that Air Force General Curtis Lemay acknowledged would have led to his execution as a war criminal if the USA had lost.

Or perhaps Japan can put up a similar memorial to the hundreds of thousands of German woman and children killed in the fire bombings of Dresden and other German cities in WWII.

But why does the US congress need to "recognize" the armenian genocide.

Because there is no statute of limitations on mass murder. In a world striving for fairness and sanity, it is what civilized societies must do when genocidalists refuse to 'fess up, or their enablers go into denial. The outrage over Iran's recent "Holocaust Conference" was not misplaced.

Adam, what an amazingly stupid statement:

"Israel is now repeating it again silently slowly murdering the whole Palestinian population"

How can the Palestinians, whose economic problems include massive population INCREASE, be described as being murdered to the last man. Such blatant denial cannot be appealed to with reason, yet I could not let the lie go unchallenged.

Re John Emerson

I think that Vonnegut would have preferred to be currently referred to as food for the worms rather than in Heaven. As he was fond of saying, so it goes.

Can't we all just talk about Turkey? [/Rodney King]

This should not be a big deal for Turkey. All they have to do is recognize it, apologize, and the issue is over. Germany has moved on, why can't they? We need to stop enabling their denial, the issue will never go away otherwise.

Does anyone know the book (was there a movie?) called Fatherland? The premise is that Kennedy and Hitler are meeting on Hitler's 75th birthday. It's 1962 and it's JOE Kennedy as president. The Jews are all gone, "moved to the East," and the gas chambers are all destroyed.

And what is the genocide that is always talked about? The Russian one of the 30s, the horrible hungers and all.

And, to make the point, who thinks about that "genocide" these days? Nobody, really. Point made.

Re: I think what Hitler's trying to say here is that history will forgive Germany brutal measures -- no matter how brutal -- as long as Germany wins.

Hmm. Who now remembers the massacres done by the Mongols? Well, er, almost everyone who knows something about the history of that period. Despite the fact seven and a half centuries have passed we still recall that the Mongols were genocidal. And yet the Mongols had very few defeats (one in Syria, another in their attempt to conquer Japan-- that's all I can bring to mind). So no, victory does not necessarily erase memories of misdeeds. (see also: Spanish conquest of the New World, etc.)

Turkey's official denial of the Armenian genocide wouldn't be such a problem if it didn't curtail freedom of speech and academic freedom. While I'm all in favor of Turkey someday soon joining the EU, they will have to strike down laws like this that curtail freedom and go against the values of the EU. Personally, I think the moral thing to do would be for Turkey to recognize and apologize for the Armenian genocide. However, I'm not sure the latter really should be a requirement for EU membership. Does anyone know, for instance, if Germany has apologized for the Herrero genocide? Just about every country in the EU has committed multiple genocides. Have they all apologized for them? If they haven't, why should Turkey be treated differently?

"Who now remembers the massacres done by the Mongols?"

The Huns were as bad as the Mongols -- yet a best selling book from a few years ago was "Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun".

Who now remembers the massacres done by the Mongols? Well, er, almost everyone who knows something about the history of that period.

Actually, Genghis Khan is remembered quite fondly in China and Mongolia, and Columbus is still mostly revered worldwide, especially by Italians and Hispanics. By contrast, we in the West tend to think positively about the Roman Empire, which was also pretty brutal in its conquests. (Ask any Jew.)

So maybe it's not so much about who wins, but with which side we naturally associate ourselves.

I think what Hitler's trying to say here is that history will forgive Germany brutal measures -- no matter how brutal -- as long as Germany wins.

That seems a curious interpretation since the Turks were on the losing side of the First World War. And why am I the first in a long comment thread to make this rather obvious point?

The political needs of powerful groups determine exactly which pile of past corpses will be dug out of the dustbin of history and flung in the face of the enemy. Those needs don't align exactly with who wins one particular war, but they definitely align with the needs of a powerful group trying to make a point.

And although I never agree with SLC on anything, I do have to say it's a big exaggeration to accuse Israel of the genocide of the Palestinians. Some pretty nasty ethnic cleansing, lots of human rights violations, but still well short of genocide. Of course, many won't even admit to the nasty ethnic cleansing side...curiously, many Israeli Jews will admit to it, with the added excuse that they live in a nasty neighborhood.

"All they have to do is recognize it, apologize, and the issue is over. Germany has moved on, why can't they?"

The (West) Germans spent decades thinking about what they had done, teaching their children about it, making reparations, ... Saying "It happened and we're sorry" without rewriting the textbooks and broadcasting exposes in prime time might not impress skeptics.

Re: Actually, Genghis Khan is remembered quite fondly in China and Mongolia, and Columbus is still mostly revered worldwide, especially by Italians and Hispanics. By contrast, we in the West tend to think positively about the Roman Empire, which was also pretty brutal in its conquests. (Ask any Jew.)

Right. But no one denies these things. We all know that the Mongols killed millions, that the Spaniards were harsh and brutal (as were the other European conquerors of the Americas). And yes, we know the Romans coined the phrase "Make a desert and call it peace". So the notion embodied in the Hitler quote is false: genocides and other such nastiness are remembered by the future. Victory does not erase them from historical knowledge.

I would be rather surprised if Genghis Khan is fondly remembered in China (except by several millions of Mongol citizens of China).

On the other hand, the position of US government of having no position about Armenian holocaust defies reason. So what will Turks do if they get miffed by USA acknowledging what happened? Ally herself with Russia? Iran? Russia, of course, is an ally of Armenia, but it has OK relationship with Turkey. Iran, by enemy of my enemy logic, has rather cordial relationship with Armenia (secular leaders of Azerbaijans are regarded somewhat frostily).

So Turks can voice some disappointment and that will be that. Should the last remaining superpower be utterly gutless?

I would be rather surprised if Genghis Khan is fondly remembered in China (except by several millions of Mongol citizens of China).

Then you are a surprised fellow. Everyone in Beijing boasts their city was rebuilt by Genghis Khan (which actually isn't quite accurate - it was his grandson), and they're quite proud of it. Because the Mongols became a Chinese dynasty, they've been assimilated as part of Chinese national history.

Interestingly, no one remembers the Belgian genocide in which millions died in the Congo during Leopold's personal ownership of the colony. At the time, journalists compared Leopold to the Turks, with the observation that neither suffered consequences for their actions.

On another historical note, Attila and company were probably no more brutal than the the Romans he attacked, but the Romans happened to be the ones who left a written record.

no one remembers the Belgian genocide in which millions died in the Congo during Leopold's personal ownership of the colony. At the time, journalists compared Leopold to the Turks, with the observation that neither suffered consequences for their actions.

Really? The Congo massacres preceded the Armenian genocide. Unless they were comparing the Congo to the Bulgarian horrors of the late 1870s, which Gladstone used in his election campaign in a model Bush perverted into "Have they forgotten 9/11?" in 2004.

The Congo massacres (and the rest of Europe's slaughter in Africa) did start long before the Armenian genocide, but Leopold's rule did not end until 1908, and knowledge of the atrocities were still very fresh in European minds. I intended to say the Armenian situation was being compared to the Congo.

My point was that Matt is right about power winning over truth, and the Congolese simply don't have a good enough lobby.

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