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Huh. Looks like there was more than one "did they really ask that question?" moment in the Democratic debate. Ed Kilgore reports:
Obama had some of the most interesting moments. He initially flubbed a "gotcha" question about America's "three top allies," and didn't mention Israel, but nicely handled the follow-up. He was more specific about health care than in past debates. And he did a solid job of answering questions about his position on Iraq.
Oh, my! A top three allies question. The UK and Canada are, I think, our numbers one and two allies. Apparently, the "right" answer is that Israel belongs in the top three as well. Seeing as how US troops have never fought alongside the IDF and we don't have a formal treaty commitment to the defense of Israel (we surely would have one were Israel to have defined borders, but it doesn't, so we don't) this strikes me as a difficult case to make. Australia is probably most aligned with us in foreign policy terms. But I think you'd have to say that the US-Japanese alliance has a hard-to-beat combination of closeness and strategic significance. The fact that NATO involves so many players, however, makes this a bit hard to answer, since that makes a whole big raft of countries very significant allies of ours.
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"The UK and Canada are, I think, our numbers one and two allies"
WUUUUUUUUU! CANADA! CANADA! WOOT!
'NATO' would cover England, France, Germany, and Canada, plus the rest of Europe. ANZACs would cover Australia and NZ, and Japan would cover the obvious.
If *I* were answering, I'd say NATO, ANZACs (because we have fought alongside them in several wars, including Korea, Vietnam and the current mess), Japan. Israel can be #4.
m, and if they don't like it, tough
unlike britain, australia isn't part of a sometimes hostile trade bloc. and unlike canada, australia has troops in iraq. and apart from anything else, how many allies besides australia can you think of that have refused to ratify kyoto?
there's no contest: australia is clearly america's closest ally.
The exact questions asked are usually somewhat irrelevant because the candidates so often ignore them and instead answer the questions they feel like answering. Obama discussed the need to strengthen ties with the European Union and China and did fine. It's rather silly to go around ranking our allies in the first place.
Israel is more like millstone around the neck. Probably not the right answer, though.
You forgot Poland!
What a stupid question. Reminds me of my favorite line from High Fidelity:
Top five musical crimes perpetuated by Stevie Wonder in the '80s and '90s. Go. Sub-question: is it in fact unfair to criticize a formerly great artist for his latter day sins, is it better to burn out or fade away?
If you go by who votes the most with US in the UN General Assembly, Israel is #1.
Did Turkey cease to exist?
How many of those votes are against some Israel condemning resolution?
Any word on what media genius asked that question? Or are they letting middle-schoolers ask the questions now?
I thought Obama's answer was really good: mentioning the EU and then NATO, discussing stabilizing Afghanistan and then using Japan as a starting point to talk about how to help ease China into the world system was all smart.
"Or are they letting middle-schoolers ask the questions now?"
My thoughts exactly: "OK, Heather, go stand at the front of the class and tell us all who your top three friends are. You'll be graded on your answer."
It's been pretty clear for a while that the policy elite have been outright enforcing a ban on criticism of Israel. If you say something even somewhat critical of Israeli policy, it isn't only AIPAC and the anti-defamation league that comes after you, it's the mainstream media, mainstream politicians and the entire establishment. As such, any answer to any question that does not outright state that Israel is America Jr. is going to be picked apart by scum like kilgore and the rest of the DLC crowd.
Isn't the answer here meant to be Iraq? After all Iraq receives more foreign aid from the US than Israel today and there are more Iraqi troops fighting alongside US troops today than any other nation.
The real question behind the question here was 'which country does the US have the strongest cultural affinity with'. Clearly that is Britain, but in a rather peculiar way as far as the neocons are concerned, they seem to consider the US to be the natural successor to the British empire.
The correct answer here should be that the US has two principal defensive aliances: NATO and ANZUS and will always have a special relationship with the UK and with its neighbors Canada and Mexico.
Then point out that one of the major unremarked cost of the blunder in Iraq was the damage to the NATO alliance. Allies that warned Bush of the likely outcome were attacked and ridiculed with the same ferocity as domestic dissidents. Only a Democratice President who can repudiate the insults made by Bush can repair that damage.
Kilgore is a useless fuck, isn't he?
Ron, the US is Israel's best ally, but Israel isn't necessarily the US's best ally. In most of the US-and-Israel-against-the-world UN votes, the US was standing alone in its support of Israel, often at great cost to the US. This is probably the most blatantly stupid of the pro-Israel arguments, and it should be retired.
What a unbelievably stupid question.
This is why Republicans win elections and then suck at governing. They think questions like these are actually meaningful.
OK, forget for a moment what the correct answer is. This is a political debate. Whether Israel is really in the top three or not, there's no political downside for including it, and possibly a political downside for excluding it.
So, the correct answer is: UK, Israel and your choice of Canada, Germany, Japan, or South Korea.
In any case, it's a stupid question. I would ignore the framework of the question and just rattle off a list of important allies. And if the questioner got huffy about wanting only three, I'd politely tell him it's the wrong question.
Yeah, that's an amazingly stupid question. Does "top" refer to geopolitical importance or to loyalty and alignment of interests?
And doesn't it seem like this question would lead a candidate to snub anyone who gets left out of the top 3?
Matt don't forget that other useless question: "Can I see a show of hands of how many of you have had a gun in the home." Totally useless.
and if they don't like it, tough
Posted by: max on April 27, 2007 02:36 AM
it's not whether or not Israel likes it or not that matters...
it's whether AIPAC and the Israeli State Lobby like it that matters. no candidate for national office in the US can get elected without fellating that group.
It'd be ridiculous not to say Japan. We own their government. Other countries we've allied with aren't 50 year-old one-party states, which supposedly rely completely on the United States for their defense.
Israel is a great ally as long as you ignore all the spying cases of the past 15 years deal with Israel spying of the US. Nothing screams ally like trying to steal your state secrets!
"...and unlike canada, australia has troops in iraq..."
Canada does have troops in Afghanistan; in fact we sent the third largest contingent to that fight, only Britain and the US did more. So I'd argue that Canada is a better ally because we went to fight the war that needed to be fought, and tried to stop the one that was a mistake...
We're also America's biggest trading partner and largest supplier of foreign (to you) oil; a supply which we are treaty bound to ensure even if we're short ourselves.
And the icing on the cake; we now have our very own torture scandal: http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/26/afghan-detainees.html
Thanks for everything, America...
Obama should have followed the rattle off countries ignoring Australia. Then it would have been pissing off Australia and there dozens of primary voters instead of Israel.
I tell ya, there's something phony going on. There's something phony about me, about Raymond Shaw, about the whole Medal of Honor business...I said: 'Raymond Shaw is the kindest, warmest, bravest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life, and even now I feel that way - this minute. And yet, somewhere in the back of my mind, something tells me it's not true. It's just not true. It isn't as if Raymond's hard to like. He's IMPOSSIBLE to like. In fact, he's probably one of the most repulsive human beings I've ever known in my whole - all of my life.
...Should we blame the matches?
Should we blame the fire?
Or the doctors who allowed him to expire?
Heck no!
Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
Obama's answer to the "three most important allies" question was:
1) The European Union, as a whole (also talked about NATO)
2) Japan
3) China (more accurately he said they were "neither our enemy nor our friend, but a competitor")
Obama did not mention Israel. Brian Williams followed up by asking about Israel, Obama responded by calling them "one of our most important allies."
Contrary to most of the sentiment here I think this "three most important allies" question is very interesting and should be asked of all the candidates. Yes, there's no one right answer, but that's exactly the point--it illuminates the candidates' thinking. I expect Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, and Bill Richardson might have slightly different answers for example, not to mention the Republican candidates (Hillary would definitely have mentioned Israel).
1) Australia only has 20 million people -- whereas there are 3 BILLION people in the Asian hordes just to the north.
Australia would be speaking Japanese if not for the US Navy in WWII and Australia would be TOAST if the USA ever withdrew from it's global empire.
Which may explain why Australian billionaire Rupert Murdoch invests so heavily in the US news media and in advocates for US imperialism like the Neocons.
2) As I've noted here, the largest Democratic campaign donor in 2000-2002 was Israeli billionaire Haim Saban --who coughed up around $15 Million. Saban is a very strong advocate for US support of Israel.
But Haim Saban is wealthy only because Rupert Murdoch gave Saban roughly $1 Billion for the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers -- a bunch of dorks dressed up in tights who didn't even have to say any lines.
3) It has always been interesting to me that those who speak of the international Zionist conspiracy ..er..excuse me, the Israel Lobby -- never get around to looking at the goyim who're actually running the alleged conspiracy. heh heh
4) It has been Canadian billionaire Conrad Black, for example,
who has been picking up the rather hefty restaurant bills of neocon Richard Perle all these years.
"Hands up if you think I'm a blow-dried talking penis."
Obviously, 'Israel' is a wrong answer to Williams' inane allies question, because 'Israel' in American politics does not actually refer to a country, but to an ideology.
Why don't they just ask, "Who are your top three favorite family members?" Don't leave anyone out now.
The correct answer is to say that as a prospective president it isn't wise to insult all the other countries that wouldn't be in my own top 3, so I decline to answer your frivolous question.
Worst part to me was the 'raise your hand' question format. As if that wasn't juvenile enough, Williams then called on only the people with their hands up. So they were, in fact, raising their hand to say they wanted to talk rather than to provide an answer to he question. Which is even more juvenile.
It's a dumb question, but a softball. Answer: "Do we even have three allies? Thanks to the incompetence and arrogance of the Bush Administration, many countries that used to be important allies now view us with distrust if not outright enmity. Let me name three countries that should be important allies once again. Start with Germany, the largest country in western Europe...."
PS For those who don't get out much, "Australian billionaire Rupert Murdoch " = Fox News.
I've always been curious why all the Fox News people wave the US flag so much -- shouldn't they wave the Australian flag instead?
Maybe they could put a stuffed Kangaroo onto top of Bill O'Reilly's desk as a signal to the cognoscenti.
Plus a stuffed Koala bear who's winking on top of Hannity's desk.
What do these people do to get these jobs? Do they do really great, unheralded work as young reporters? Do they labor at gruntwork to make others look good until it is their turn? Do they get really good grades at top notch journalism schools?
What is the process that gives us such poor performers in such high-paying jobs? You'd think that the competition would be fierce - akin to pro sports. While pro sports teams might do poorly at picking talent compared to other sports teams, none of them field players who are worse than unpaid amateurs. I don't think the news business can make that claim.
The only proper response to this question is to point at the interviewer and laugh.
VANUATU, BITCHES!!!!!
You're all wrong because you forgot about Poland.
Re snuh's comment "australia is clearly america's closest ally."
-------
How can any country that inflicted us with Rupert Murdoch/FOX NEWS be considered an ally?
On the other hand, Australia does have the world's largest supply of uranium --25% of known world reserves -- and the market price for uranium has moved from around $7 in 2001 to over $100 recently.
So yeah , we'll let them stay in Churchill's international conspiracy of "English speaking peoples" --provided they walk behind Tony Blair.
Yes, it is a stupid question. But NONE of the candidates answered it correctly. These days, America's top three allies are Halliburton Corp., Blackwater USA, and the People's Bank of China (which buys the debt we issue to pay the first two).
Freedom doesn't come cheap, folks.
The right anwser:
"The US is not in the business of ranking its allies. We have many close allies around the world and when I'm president I will repair alliances that have frayed and rebuild the relationships of trust that hhave made the United States the leader of the free world and. In my presidency, from Poland to Portugal, from Israel to Indonesia, the people of the world will be proud to call themselves allies of the United States of America."
top 3 allies? Really only one matters.......
Woodstock nation...
All others pale....
Screw Isreal. The whole middle east situation is bullshit. No, it's not entirely their fault, but it is stupid to back anybody in that mess, and we are clearly backing them.
Who is our third ally? France?
Nobody WANTS TO BE OUR ALLY right now. They're saying: Call us in January 2009, or after the Senate trial/removal...
Canada is absolutely #1. It's pretty hard to argue with $500B+ trade between the two nation, a 5000+ mile undefended border and being the #1 foreign supplier of oil.
On a related note, I was glad to see Obama stand up for himself and hit back when asked, "You've said that 'nobody suffers more than the palestinians...'" with the answer, "That's not the whole quote, Brian. What I actually said was 'Nobody has suffered more than the Palestinians from the failures of the Palestinian leadership to ...'"
It was a dirty sneaky question, and it was good to see him hit back rather than whine about it.
Is that America's greatest allies, or George Bush's greatest allies?
Our allies can be found everywhere, cheering on freedom and equality. Our enemies are George Bush and his friends.
Your favorite ally sucks.
Well shoot - if we're gonna have an Axis of Evil we have to have an Axis of Okey-Dokey, don't we?
How else are we supposed to know who's with us or agin us?
A better question might be, Can you name three countries that would want to be our allies and publicly admit it?
"In my presidency, from Poland to Portugal, from Israel to Indonesia, the people of the world will be proud to call themselves allies of the United States of America."
While I also look forward to the day when we're allies with everyone, I'm not sure who we'd need allies against in that scenario. Space invaders?
Actually, I'd have to agree that Israel is one of our most important allies.
Just not in a good way.
Whatever place we occupy on America's "Bestest friends list" we'll gladly cede to however wants it most.
Whattamabid?
with friends like israel who needs enemies
India!
We just gave them a great deal on nuclear technology (compare Iran). They're the world's largest multicultural democracy and the nuclear-armed, Muslim dictatorship of Pakistan hates em.
(you don't want to play ball? Okay we'll back India...)
Plus they got Bollywood!
Israel's settlement/colonization policy and its stupid war with Hezbollah hurt the U.S.'s
"image," but they are a democracy and at least they aren't calling for wiping Iran from the map.
Look, since the Kitty Dukakis question, it's been clear that any candidate who tries to answer the question is a chump, and chumps don't deserve to be president. You don't answer the question. You tell the voters what you want them to know about you. The guy asking the questions is a prop. He's there to be used, not talked to, and any candidate who hasn't figured that out yet is out of his league.
How about something like, "no matter what I say I'm going to offend the next seven. Nice try. Next question."
Obama should have used a phone-a-friend and asked Jonathan Pollard for a hint.
"Hey Jon, who's that country you were spying on us for?"
with all our allies why should israel have to be a must in an answer? I thought Japan was a good and often overlooked ally to answer with. No one ever mentions them and they are very important with N. Korea and China rising.
To answer that question, why not just check out the United States' MySpace page and see what its top 3 friends are?
"at least they aren't calling for wiping Iran from the map."
Oh yes they are. At least Israel's allies in the U.S. policy debate are regularly calling for Iran to be bombed.
Castorp:
Matt don't forget that other useless question: "Can I see a show of hands of how many of you have had a gun in the home." Totally useless.
It's a useful question for some voters. We may be voters you disagree with or even hold in contempt, but tough. We're citizens and we can vote.
Of course the most useful information is a candidate's actual voting record on gun issues. But if the record is thin, then I value knowing whether the candidate is a gun owner. If he isn't, I'm not inclined any promises he makes on the issue.
It's a classic 'culture' question. Is the candidate like me? Does he share my values?
When I heard that question I wondered if Israel was the "right" answer, then I decided I was paranoid and crazy.
Erratum:
That was supposed to be:
If he isn't [a gun owner], I'm not inclined to trust any promises he makes on the issue.
I think Great Britain, Canada and Japan are our top 3, most important allies. You could also throw in Mexico, Australia and perhaps South Korea and Germany.
Israel is in the mix. But is it more important than, say India?!? Objectively, NO!
I think, in any case, the question is fricking stupid. And if it was aksed of me, I would have said the question is stupid.
David: My own views of gun control are mixed, and in fact, I would have been able to raise my hand. I am from a rural area and hunted a lot in my life, but the question is still stupid. As you say, talking about gun policies themselves, would have been better.
As to the question, is the candidate like me? I think that is just a stupid, absurd way to look at politics (no offense). "Voters" may care, but they aren't watching debates many months before the primaries. What I care about is if the candidate I support passes policies, in aggregate, that I also support. I, and most likely you, are not like any of the candidates. Are you multi-millionaire trial lawyer? Or the wife of a former President? Yeah, didn't think so. Going further back: Are you related to the Queen, come from New England aristocracy, and have a father who was CIA director, Vice-President, and President? Didn't think so. Are you the son of a famous Tennessee Senator who went to all the best schools?
It's a classic 'culture' question. Is the candidate like me? Does he share my values?
But "owning a gun" is not a value. What the question is trying to force is the use of the fact of gun ownership as a proxy for some vaguely defined set of values, and even a few seconds' thought should make it obvious that the correlation between that fact and any given "value" or set of values is so crude and imperfect as to be meaningless. Unless you really think that gun ownership (or lack thereof) per se is something you're looking for in a candidate for president (as opposed to attitudes about gun regulation) -- and, if you are, I submit that places you in a hopefully very tiny minority of voters -- then it's not only a stupid question, it's a dishonest one as well.
RE "If he isn't [a gun owner], I'm not inclined to trust any promises he makes on the issue."
----------
Actually, some gun owners don't like to discuss what's in our armories.. er.. antique collections. That makes its easier to bury them without risk if ATF ever gets the upper hand.
So I think it would be more fair to ask each candidate what kind of gun they would buy if they were in a gun store.
My guess is Bill Richardson is a Colt 45 automatic type of guy -- simple and competent. Obama would probably go for a 9mm Glock --er, Sig given the unfortunate Virginia Tech publicity. Joe Biden, of course, would insist upon a gold-inlaid , flintlock dueling pistol.
Hillary , I think, would choose one of those tiny 25 automatics that fit in the palm of your hand. The kind that drug dealers hid in their armpits so that they can pull the piece out quickly and shoot a rival in the temple when the rival is distracted.
Just once I'd like to see a candidate say to the moderator: "My God that's an asinine question."
Israel is more an American colony than an ally. America's most important alliances are the UN, NATO, and whatever we call our alliance with S Korea and Japan.
Glenn:
What the question is trying to force is the use of the fact of gun ownership as a proxy for some vaguely defined set of values, and even a few seconds' thought should make it obvious that the correlation between that fact and any given "value" or set of values is so crude and imperfect as to be meaningless.
If a person is willing to have a gun in his home, that means that at least he is not one of those liberals who have a visceral hatred of guns. That's something I want to know.
In terms of whom we have the closest intelligence relationships with--- UK, Canada and Australia. If one wants to be more inclusive, you could say NATO, Australia and Japan but that would unnecessarily piss off the South Koreans, so I'd stick with our three Echelon buddies.
New Zealand used to be in the top tier, but they dropped out of the ANZAC treaty. They slacked off once they realized no one could get to them without going through Australia and no one is going through Australia as long as the US Navy has nuclear weapons. If I remember correctly, they declared themselves a nuclear free zone and forbade the US Navy from docking any nuclear armed ships. If China ever starts bullying Australia, instead of throwing down with the Chicoms, we'll just end up tossing them New Zealand and call it a day, Fuck Peter Jackson.
The questions were uniformly idiotic, yet almost all of them were crafted with a childish "gotcha" quality. Hmm, who is the Washington Bureau chief of MSNBC? Oh yeah, Tim Russert...
As far as the best answer goes, I agree with fool, bloix, and jalmani. (Maybe they should run instead of the candidates we have.) I also second njorl's remarks on the questioners.
Just once I'd like to see a candidate say to the moderator: "My God that's an asinine question."
My sentiments exactly.
Brian Williams is a tool. He may as well ask 'who's in your five?' And when simulcasting a debate on radio, try to stay away from questions that require a show of hands. The blind love those questions as well.
It was a stupid question - one among many, unfortunately. I would have answered Britain, Germany, and Japan. We may be Israel's most important ally, but I don't think Israel is one of our top three allies-- but maybe I would put it in our fave five.
Well, 'scuse me but............I would've said "France" (we still owe them for the loan of Pierre Charles L'Enfant during the Revolutionary War).
...Canada is as true an ally as we could ever ask for.
Sometimes you have to tell a friend they are wrong. Heck, they put up with living next door to us...
Anyone who doubts that Canada is a fantastic ally needs to recall this inspiring bit of history.
Re "I would've said "France" (we still owe them for the loan of Pierre Charles L'Enfant during the Revolutionary War)."
-----------
Actually, the United States would never have come into existence if not for a covert operation by the King of France to smuggle 100,000 muskets plus cannons and powder into the States.
Done under a front company called Hortalez et Cie, run by Pierre-Augustin Caron de Beaumarchais. Who died bankrupt after Congress welched on paying back a huge personal loan Pierre made to us. See https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/warindep/intellopos.html
So the next time you see "The Marriage of Figaro" --or hear some uneducated hick in Congress refer to "Freedom Fries" --remember: No good deed goes unpunished.
Uh guys, Murdoch dropped his Aussie citizenship when he took up US citizenship. He's your megalomaniac media mogul now.
IAPAC pays the networks a lot of dough for Isreal to be one of the "right" answers.
Did Turkey cease to exist?
Yes.
Turkey royally backstabbed us at the start of this war. Our pincer movement from the north never did happen, did it? That betrayal had real impact on the facts on the ground.
No matter what you think of the war today that kind of episode disqualifies the perp as an authentic ally. We'll continue to triangulate using Turkey - but as an odious diplomatic requirement. And count on Turkey in a tight spot ever again? Are you senile? Do you have Alzheimer's?
As to the William's question: it should be spun like any other idiotic debate question. But all the multicultural group therapy in the world cannot change the fact that blood is thicker than water. When it hits the fan, we have family in this world who have fought and died alongside us for the past 100 years: UK, Canada, Australia. Everybody else is suspect. For good reason.
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Yeah, I think it's kinda weird that anyone would expect Israel to be in the top 3. They're definitely not. It's more like America is trying to help them, than they're trying to help America in anything.
Interesting where this is going... although Australia seems to be (by action) an Ally, they might not be in the top three because of policy. Let's fact it, they are doing a significant amount that side of the world side-by-side with the USA, but policy wise... well, they may be close, but there's nothing like an 'official' alliance or anything.
Now, let's be honest, the fundamentalists were probably hoping Obama would say “Israel” - or, at least, if he did he'd swing some votes his way. But that's for another debate.
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Funny how Donohue's point seems to be being made as this post devolved from discussing goodness for goodness' sake vs religion demading that you be good, to gay rights and gay bashing, violent content and freewheeling epithets. I always thought of myself as a fun loving atheist. Can't we all just get along?
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Project--with good reason, as it turns out. So her actions make sense. I think the larger point here is that the human connection
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my God, i thought you were going to chip in with some decisive insght at the end there, not leave it with
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