How The Other Half Lives

Not surprising as we're governed by a bunch of sociopaths.

That's exactly right, Matt. I think Robert McNamara makes this very point in FOG OF WAR, which I highly reccomend to anyone who hasn't seen it.

Hell, it's like the pundit/beltway/staffer/politico class isn't even aware of August 1914 and the tragedy of misperceptions in foreign policy. Then again, I guess that oughtn't surprise me.

A) John McCain IS unstable and dangerous.

B) If Bush had sung the song, it would have obviously been an international incident, just like when Ahmadinejad threatened to "wipe Israel off the map."

C) The more hawkish members of the Republican party actually do intend to go to war with Iran, as soon as it becomes politically feasible. So anyone watching McCain sing his little song would take away exactly the right conclusion.

Speaking of "how the other half lives", why the hell is MoveOn trying to get McCain the GOP nomination?

Not to ruin the party, but it's not like Ahmadinejad never says anything inflammatory. What with the holocaust denial and wiping countries off the map and all that . . .

why the hell is MoveOn trying to get McCain the GOP nomination?

Ummm...because "Mr. Surge," as the GOP candidate, would go down like a ton of bricks in the general election?

Sounds like a plan to me...

jbl, why are defenders of this administration comfortable that it acts like those it claims are the worst examples? Your comment would be irrelevant, were it not so damning.

but it's not like Ahmadinejad never says anything inflammatory. What with the holocaust denial and wiping countries off the map and all that . . .

jbl, you have made the point yourself.

Ahmadinejad says these things, and it is instantly taken by US politicians on both sides of the aisle as proof positive that Iran Represents A Grave Threat And Must Be Dealt With Using All Means Necessary.

So...what do you think the politicians "on both sides of the aisle" in IRAQ might say about the U.S., when they see St. John's little shtik??

Dear jbl. Since when is the excuse for our stupid behavior that Iran also indulges in similar, but much less consequential, rhetoric? Since the Bush administration, obviously.

Not to ruin the party, but it's not like Ahmadinejad never says anything inflammatory. What with the holocaust denial and wiping countries off the map and all that . . .

Not to reconvene the party and spike the punch, but that's kind of the whole point. A-Jad says stupid, inflammatory things, and so do our own leaders. Each respective audience tends to interpret such statements through different lenses, and with varying degrees of outrage.

Our leaders are surprisingly tone-deaf when it comes to such matters. But such attention to international opinion is worth a little caution, circumspection and attention. These are the "gimmee" points of soft power.

And we shouldn't be looking to A-Jad to set the bar. We SHOULD be able to run circles around A-Jad in the realm of PR and rhetoric. Our advantages in appeal are considerable (hell, many Iranians see this too), but also frequently squandered.

Isn't not having to look at things from other countries' perspectives a striaghtforward consequence of even the most "progressive," Princeton Project-y forms of American exceptionalism? America's intentions are pure, and if any other countries don't get that, that's their problem, not America's.

"Ummm...because "Mr. Surge," as the GOP candidate, would go down like a ton of bricks in the general election? Sounds like a plan to me..."

It may sound like a plan to you, but Mr. Surge or not, McCain would be the GOP's strongest general election candidate.

There's another half to the electorate, and they live differently than you or I.

Well, I don't carry a brief for Mccain, and I thought it was a fairly foolish thing for a supposedly serious candidate to say. And I don't get the sense we're on the brink of war with Iran over Ahmadinejad's staments or over McCain's. We really aren't about to start another war.

To a certain extent, I don't see Beutler's point, I guess. Iran should take McCain seriously (except that there's really very little chance he'll be elected). The U.S. should take Ahmadinejad seriously. And Iraqis should take everyone seriously. Nobody should get a free pass for being uselessly inflammatory, and I think that is what's happening.

Les: McCain isn't part of the administration.

We really aren't about to start another war.

Glad you're so sure about that. Time will tell.

It may sound like a plan to you, but Mr. Surge or not, McCain would be the GOP's strongest general election candidate.

Stronger than Giuliani?

This is a failing amongst democrats, not republicans. Republicans are well aware of how things will be percieved abroad but whenever they try to point this out liberals being wailing about having their patriotism questioned.

Ajad denies the Holocaust and says nasty things about Israel as part of a coherent plan of asserting Iran's role as a regional power. Iran tries to foster Muslim solidarity against the ancient enemy, Christendom, and to paint Israel as the modern incarnation of the medieval Kingdom of Jerusalem. In effect, Ajad is fighting the Crusades over again (you may recall that the Muslims won the first time around).

McCain, on the other hand, is just being a jerk.

Actually, MY's very good point has to do with much more than inflammatory language on the part of McCain. The inability to imagine how other people see things has a lot to do with the incredibly bad job the media has done covering Iraq from the beginning. A factoid that I find interesting is to compare the amount of news space in American papers right up to the election in December, 2005, was taken up by Ahmad Chalabi. I would conservatively estimate that there were maybe ten times the amount of stories about Chalabi as compared to any other Iraqi politician. The election showed that Chalabi's support in Iraq was less than 1 percent. To put that in perspective, imagine a newspaper covering the U.S. elections of 2004 by giving more news space to Dennis Kucinich than to George Bush and John Kerry combined. It would be obvious that the image of the U.S., presented by such a paper, would not be within interstellar range of U.S. reality. The same issue pops up, more significantly, in the coverage of mortality - one of the things the Lancet report pointed to was the cost of embedding reporters with military units, since the main story in Iraq, the horrendous cost of the war in human life, was simply being unreported. That even today, Americans estimate, according to polls, that maybe 10,000 Iraqis have been killed in this war - when even the Iraqi Health Ministry conceded in 2006 that the number was more like 175,000, and since then the figures have shot up obscenely - can be laid squarely at the feet of the media. The elite figures in the media live in a bubble that is every bit as reality resistant as George Bush's.

I don't really think this is a big deal. If you look at the youtube, McCain is answering an overly-belligerent anti-Iran question from a nutcase in the audience. The Senator's making fun of the dude, seems to me.

Also, McCain never sang the whole song, he's all, "Oh, yeah, the old Beach Boys song -- Bomb Iran: Bomb, Bomb, Bomb..." and trails off. It's not like he prances around the stage singing the line more than once, the way one could imagine if one wanted to imagine McCain as loony-looking as possible. I don't like the guy, but that's just not the way things look on that video. Maybe it's wrong for a Presidential candidate to use sarcasm, but it's dumb to ignore the fact completely that McCain was employing it.

jbl:

But he is a senior senator and a member of the president's political party. While not perfectly analagous to Ahmadinejad, it is reasonably close as he is not the supreme commander of the armed forces (the Khamenei is).

But whatever.

it wouldn't be taken lightly here

That's because when Ahmadenijad says something inflamatory, it isn't a joke.

On the other hand, when McCain sung his little ditty, it was a joke.

It occurs to me that they probably understand the concept of humor in Iran. Surely much better than does Brian Beutler.

I could probably think of a few more big problems, but Matt's last sentence is spot-on, though.

But, but, but Ogged says we ahve to look at the full context of McCain's joke. In context it could be totally sane and reasonable. And Ogged is super smart!

when McCain sung his little ditty, it was a joke.

Yes...I've long noticed how much right-wing "humor" involves the infliction of violence upon others. It's quite striking.

Once again, a republican evokes the Beach Boys: fond reminiscenes of Mr. Ronald Reagan, one-time republican president of the U.S. Boys will be boys, like the present republican president too.

I'd say that, in the first place, the true failure is more the inability or unwillingness to imagine what it's like to have a bomb fall on your head or even to envisage anyone's fear of this happening. Or maybe instead: to be able to imagine what it is like and still decide to do it, kind of like it's nice. Violence for the sake of violence.

On the other hand, when McCain sung his little ditty, it was a joke.

A joke from a man who actually favors a policy that would bring the "joke" to reality.

LOL.

BAWAWWHAHAHAHAHAHH!!!!one!!11!$$

Otherwise, I appreciate the nuanced interpretation of McCain's motives and the like, but, you know, do we apply the same filter to A-Jad?

He has a domestic audience he's playing to. He has political vulnerability due to poor economic performance and an otherwise lackluster slate of legislation. He needs something to bolster his position.

His like-minded ideologues have an interest - like McCain and his - in forestalling any emerging rapprochement. He knows how to use rhetoric to fire up his base, and eliminate any creeping normalization between the US and Iran.

So when A-Jad yells, "jump", we jump.

But we only find excuses for McCain.

Which is the flip side to the same coin: failing to account for the domestic interests/contextual exigencies of foreign leaders.

"Stronger than Giuliani?"

No doubt.

A joke from a man who actually favors a policy that would bring the "joke" to reality.

He favors a policy of bombing Iran? Really? Uh, no.

I appreciate the nuanced interpretation of McCain's motives

Getting the joke is "a nuanced interpretation"? Now, THAT'S funny. Sometimes I think that liberals lack the humor gene, and you're doing nothing to disabuse me of that thought, Eric. BTW, the audience to whom McCain was speaking got the, er, "nuanced interpretation" (a/k/a, joke): "The audience responded with laughter." Hell, even the headline writers for the AP got the "nuanced interpretation."

Now, if someone says something that is NOT a joke, am I probably right to take it more seriously that something that IS intended as a joke? I would think so. Maybe that's just not nuanced enough, though.

Let's face it: "batshit crazy" is the only card we're still holding in the Middle East.

Ahmadinejad advocates a one-state solution for Palestine. Contrary to the oh-so-popular Big Lie, he has never 'threatened' the use of Iranian military power to impose such a solution. If I'm wrong, let's see the citation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/21/AR2006092100829.html

President Ahmadinejad's News Conference

September 21, 2006

Throughout our history, our country has not taken away the rights of any other country, has not initiated war against any other country, has not been an aggressor, has had no territorial claims over other countries.

And so when we speak of Palestine, it's because we don't want to see war there.

So our proposals on Palestine are quite clear. We have proposed a referendum. We've had enough of an experience, over 60 years, all failed, tens and tens of solutions, simply because they did not give justice to all sides.

Justice means allowing, as well, the Palestinian people to decide over its own fate.

No, I'm not anti-Jew. Jews are respected by everyone like all human beings. And I respect them very much.

Let us remember that in Palestine there are Muslims, Christians and Jews who live together. We speak of the Palestinian nation, of a people all in all embracing everyone. I never have said the Muslims in Palestine alone should decide about their fate.

He favors a policy of bombing Iran? Really? Uh, no.

Yeah. Sure. I'd bet that if Bush announced plans to, or just went ahead and did it, McCain would be strongly opposed.

I'm sure that if Iran is not prevented from acquiring a nuke through non-military means, McCain would not bomb them should he be given the ability. Nor would he support such a move absent his own prerogative.

Now that, my dear Al, is a joke! Very funny!

And how do you suppose McCain has won such effusive praise from Kristol and the Weekly Standard gang? Not because McCain, like, supports the policies those guys view as essential.

Unless you would argue that Kristol doesn't favor bombing Iran. Nor Rubin. Nor Podhoretz. And neither does Ledeen I suppose. In fact, Ledeen didn't even support the Iraq invasion.

LOL.

Come to think of it, conservatives ARE funny!

As far as I can tell, Eric, none of the people you mention support bombing Iran under current circumstances. Are there some other circumstances under which they might change their respective minds and support bombing? Sure. That's true, I'll bet, for 99.99% of the people in this country. Heck, even YOU might support bombing Iran under some other circumstances, who knows?

Anyone who doesn't think a war is likely? Imagine if those British sailors from a couple weeks ago were American soldiers, and tell me with a straight face that the administration wouldn't have gone to war.

As far as I can tell, Eric, none of the people you mention support bombing Iran under current circumstances. Are there some other circumstances under which they might change their respective minds and support bombing? Sure. That's true, I'll bet, for 99.99% of the people in this country. Heck, even YOU might support bombing Iran under some other circumstances, who knows?

Actually, all of thse people mentioned (save McCain) have ALREADY urged for bombing Iran under CURRENT and PAST circumstances. The "changing of the mind" would be to a position NOT in support of bombing Iran. Though Ledeen does like to hop back and forth, on or off, off or on, and so forth. But he did the same with Iraq - even to this day. He actually pretends like he opposed the invasion of Iraq!

More humor from conservatives I guess.

I gave you the links and quotes to all this a while back Al.

And for the record: there are definitely circumstances under which I would support bombing Iran. None have come to pass thus far, nor do I see acquisition or near acquisition of a nuke a valid reason.

Re: That even today, Americans estimate, according to polls, that maybe 10,000 Iraqis have been killed in this war

I think that'd because most people think of "deaths in war" as meaning people who died directly in battle (including civilians as caught in the crossfire). 10,000 woudl be a reasonable estimate of that number. The Lancet study of course is much broader and includes people who have died of any causes whatsoever over and above the "background" death rate of pre-American invasion Iraq.

Re: Throughout our history, our country has not taken away the rights of any other country

He's foreshortened history quite a bit there, leaving off Persia's imperial past, from the Achaimenids and Sasanids of antiquity down to the Safavids of the early modern era.

Matt's point is rather simple, Al. The reason McCain's silly little joke is stupid isn't just that it's stupid on its face. It's that the Iranian media and other countries' news sources can -- quite reasonably, unfortunately -- take this little ditty out of context as "proof" that we're hell bent on regime change in other Middle Eastern countries as well. Not only is this type of rhetoric dangerous, but it's a strategic misstep for us, as it ratchets up the sympathy for Al-Qaeda's cause.

To put it another way, just as conservatives take every anti-U.S. comment from a Syrian or Iranian leader to "prove" that we're at war with every Middle Eastern country, or at least that we should be, so, too, can Middle Eastern countries take such comments as "evidence" that the U.S. wants to wipe them off the map. And they have a lot more reason to be worried than we do. Iran may deny the Holocaust, but they have yet to bomb Israel, where we actually have invaded a sovereign country in their neighborhood and are still occupying it five years later.

Our politicians can claim all they want that we're not interested in hegemony over the Middle East. But five minutes of Fox News will likely convince any sane Middle Eastern country otherwise. And when a country's populace starts agitating for war, sometimes that's exactly what they get. Stupid comments like McCain's don't help anyone.

I gave you the links and quotes to all this a while back Al.

Huh. OK, I don't recall that, but I've been distracted the past month or so.

It's that the Iranian media and other countries' news sources can -- quite reasonably, unfortunately -- take this little ditty out of context as "proof" that we're hell bent on regime change in other Middle Eastern countries as well.

Wait, if it is "out of context", how is it "quite reasonably"?

Again, my response is, it is a joke. I suspect the Iranians understand the concept of humor, so I don't think that they can take a joke as "'proof' that we're hell bent on regime change". The reason we can take Ahmadenijad seriously is that, well, he is speaking seriously and not joking!

Iran may deny the Holocaust, but they have yet to bomb Israel

Oh, please. They "have yet to bomb Israel" because they have Hezbollah to do it for them!

I'm assuming he got the joke from the Capitol Steps. They recorded a complete version of the song a while back.

Aside from looking at things from other perspectives, this also ought to convince people of the value of looking at things first-hand. In the video he's clearly joking, but of course that's not how it looks in a headline. Not that Ahmadinejad is always joking, but as Juan Cole has pointed out a number of times, the American press headlines don't always tell you what he really said. And when this is pointed out, everyone recoils to rationalize how it doesn't matter anyway because he's evil, liberals are terrorist sympathizers, etc, etc, etc.

In all seriousness, I suspect we're watching McCain publicly descend into senility. It's sad, but he has completely abdicated any claim to being taken seriously as a political figure.

People will continue to smile at him and look the other way when he shits his pants or forgets how to find his way home, while his supporters gradually reconcile themselves to their former hero's unfortunate fall from grace. By this time next year, he'll be watching the race on tv from a rocking chair at the Fletcher Memorial Old Folks Home.

Well, he'll always have his medals for getting shot down.

Why should we as Americans care what other countries think of us? We have the biggest guns...

And that's exactly how the political and media elite here look at it. It never even occurs to them that something other than overbearing American military might would matter, period.

...he'll be watching the race on tv from a rocking chair at the Fletcher Memorial..

Would that be closed circuit TV?

Huh. OK, I don't recall that, but I've been distracted the past month or so.

No worries. Our Al-bot is a busy Al-bot.

This is probably the single largest foreign policy-related failing among American politicians and members of the policy and media elites: A failure to make a serious effort to ask how things look from the perspective of other countries.

It's not only a failure, it's scene as moral turptitude, ask Noam Chomsky.

wow, seen.

turpitude

Looks like Yglesias Homonym Syndrome is catching....

Al, stop being obtuse. John Kerry botched a "joke" a while back, and you know how seriously the right-wing noise machine took that. They turned it into a full-scale "John Kerry hates our troops" crisis. It doesn't particularly matter if McCain meant it with full moral seriousness or was making an off-the-cuff remark. The fact is, other countries will interpret it through their lens, not ours, and their lens says that we're an imminent threat that's looking for reasons to invade them. McCain's comments only reinforce those perceptions, stupid joke or not.

Maybe people don't like Americans -- who have a unique capacity to inflict long-range violence -- joking about bombing them. When Jonah Goldberg joked about bombing the CN Tower, as a Canadian, I knew that it wasn't likely to be enacted as official US foreign policy soon. Still, it really pissed me off. Rationally, it didn't change my attitude towards our participation in Afghanista, but, emotionally, it made me a bit closer to the crazed anti-Americans among my countryment. (And such people exist in every non-American country.)

Had it been someone in the position of McCain, and if Canada were Iran, it would have been worse.

Kids, this wasn't really a reference to the Beach Boys. The song "Bomb Iran" was on the radio while Americans were held hostage during the Carter administration. I suspect many of us over a certain age still hear "Bomb Ira-a-an/Let's make a sta-a-and" in our heads when we hear that tune.

Doesn't mean we should do it, though!

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