We're Number 2

Oh the hell you are!

The Pearl is... pretty I guess, and has some nice restaurants. But it has none of what make Portland portlandy. It's mostly full of... people that move here from elsewhere and want to bring their high-priced condos with them.

Everyone is perpetually about to move to Portland. No one ever does.

It ranks only slightly behind "the check is in the mail" and "I won't cum in your mouth" as the most popular falsehood on Earth.

In reality, Portland's last vacancy was occupied about 7 years ago, and armed guards patrol the borders precisely to guard against folks actually trying to make the falsehood come true.

-----

And while I recognize that commenters on this thread will tell stories about their recent happy move to Portland, it's important to understand that they're lying.

And I say that being someone who... moved here from LA and lived off Northwest 23rd, previously the most expensive urban-y neighborhood, recently supplanted by the Pearl.

I've been to Portland, and man, is it hicksville for a city of 1 million or so people. Plus, everyone seems shockingly not-good-looking. The nature-type scenery is beautiful, and I guess there's outdoorsy stuff to do, but I'm not really an outdoorsy guy.

"being someone who... moved here from LA"

See what I'm talking about?

Nothing but a tissue of lies wrapped in more tissues inside of Christmas wrapping.

It's mostly full of... people that move here from elsewhere and want to bring their high-priced condos with them.

I have no high-priced condo, I just wanted to bring my blog! Where should I live.

Funnily enough, 6 of my good friends packed up and moved to Portland out of the blue 4 years ago. 3 are still there.

Move to Chicago. I would say you should move to Lakeview, so you can avoid living in a hip neighborhood. Lakeview is the opposite of a hip neighborhood; touristy and full of sports bars. Plus there's convenient access to the Red line. And douche bags. But the rent is reasonable and you can always get laid, on Clark (if straight) or in Boystown (if gay).

"I just wanted to bring my blog! Where should I live."

New York is nice. Folks tend to live in NYC unless they have some familial or experiential reason not to.

Getting past that, San Francisco is semi-nice. Portland and Seattle are a bit of a step down.

Of course, coming from the District, even Muncie, Indiana would be a step up.

If your blog is truly mobile, and you can thus consider living abroad, I'd suggest Chile. All of your friends will come visit in November. Otherwise, Europe's got lots of places to live. But Chile has similar time zones to here, which would be an advantage.

And it's worth noting that David Byrne once considered the topic. Home of Elvis and the ancient Greeks, y'know.

Ryan your ellipses... confuse me.

Europe's got lots of places to live

Vienna!

Dude, what's wrong with DC? Why you leaving us? If anything, you should change neighborhoods. I love it over here in the Eastern Market/Lincoln Park area. Lots of pretty ladies lying out in the park, a wonderful look-but-never-buy outdoor market, and a freaking Dunkin' Donuts. You just have to know what bars to go to avoid Hill staffers.

probably plenty of places in Portland you could move to, but I doubt the Pearl is the place for a first time homebuyer. Mostly I think of the Pearl for the restaurants, antique stores, and galleries (not just art galleries). Also, right next to it there's a neo-Romanesque Catholic cathedral with excellent music programs, should your tastes be moving in that direction. The largest Powell's bookstore is on the fringes of the Pearl.

What I actually really like about Portland are (a) the very walkable downtown (on the other side of Burnside -- yes, that Burnside) from the Pearl district and (b) the rather large number of independently owned interesting stores one wanders across -- most recently we found a three story store specializing in architectural and decorative elements for people rebuilding 1880-1930 vintage houses. Sort like Restoration Hardware with more authenticity and class.

You should move to London. But you're not going to do that, so you should live in the South for at least a couple of years. You can't really write about America without spending some time down there, right? Atlanta is supposed to be tolerable, and that triangley thing in NC is fine, but maybe too liberal for your purposes.

"Atlanta is supposed to be tolerable, and that triangley thing in NC is fine, but maybe too liberal for your purposes."

How 'bout Provo, Utah or Tulsa, Oklahoma? They're not as liberal as that triangley thing in NC...

I live in Tacoma, WA, and spend quite a bit of time in Portland (have relatives and friends there). It's a lovely city, very artsy, has the largest independent bookstore anywhere (Powell's), a wonderful mass transit system, great parks, and a beautiful, walkable downtown. Actually, the NW is blessed with wonderful cities (Vancouver BC, along with Portland and Seattle, and even historic backwater Tacoma has become very pleasant) as well as incredible scenery. Good thing it rains all the time, or we'd be totally overrun....

The pearl sucks. Move there if and only if you like dog shampoo parlors on every block.

You should look at moving to the east side of the river. The west side (Downtown, Pearl District) is expensive and you don't need to live there, just hop across the river for shows, etc. The best thing about Portland is that there are tons of little neighborhoods that all have cool bars, and coffee shops, and often a hip, female-friendly strip-club in there as well. I would look at NE Alberta, SE Hawthorne, SE Belmont, SE Clinton, SE around 28th and Stark. Lot's of great places. The Pearl District is an older, richer scene.

That said, NOBODY else is alowed to move here, only you Matt.

Having lived two years in Eugene, Portland is great if you like rain every day from November thru February.

It takes quite unusual observational power to distinguish between the hipster hang outs, etc in Shaw and Colombia Heights and form clear preferences between the two.
Consider delaying foreign policy book for an urban living guide.

As a longtime San Franciscan, occasional resident of Chicago and LA and sometimes visitor to Portland........Portland feels surprisingly kind of small town to me (reflecting too many steve's comment). That's not a good thing. I haven't that impressed with Portland - though Portland is much cheaper than the other major West Coast cities. Though maybe Matt's big book advance may rid him of the need to budget carefully.

No, I would say either LA or Berlin. Vienna?!? Huh? No way unless you're into Baroque architecture or something. What's so good about Vienna?

Lakeview's ok - I lived there too.

As a (relative) newcomer to Seattle, I can say that Portland is the place to be if you really want to experience the NW. A very nice small city.

But several people have said it before: Chicago is the place to be. Like NYC only livable and affordable.

What's so good about Vienna?

As you indicated, first, the architecture is amazing. Some of the best coffee in the world, and the best coffee shops in the world (of course, that's a pretty uneducated statement, but whatevs). Great public transport, great walkability (for a sprawling city), tons of culture... it's the greatest. Nice cathedral too.

I'm not a liar, petey: I moved here from San Francisco (3+ yrs ago), and Portland has most of the good things of SF and few of the bad things.

We do get fewer sunny days in the winter/spring, but lots of water makes Portland GREEN. I've never seen any big city with more big trees - everywhere.

And fab food! The people are NOT ugly, but dress is very informal. Jeans will get you into almost everywhere.

You'd be welcome in Portland, as long as you work to 'keep Portland weird'.

Here's some great pics of the city:

After viewing pics, click on 'visitors' to see things to do.

Where to live: so many choices, lots of neighborhoods with extra mustard (character). Pearl is not the right choice for a young single guy (and it's expensive).

Well, if you can look past the overworn stinky hippie cliche, SF does have a number of advantages. Stellar live music scene. Great restaurants. Our Chinese food is better than NYC's, period. They have extensive public wireless high-speed Internet coverage. Earthlink and Google just inked a deal with city hall for free city-wide wifi. Your rep as powerhouse lefty blogger will have a enormous currency in bluer-than-blue SF. Plus, the ratio of single straight men to single straight women is absolutely unbelievable. Maybe even some speaking gigs in Silicon Valley. Cha-ching.

Okay, all of those people who said Portland is hicksville are just WRONG. Matt, if you're looking to leave the craziness of New York for the west coast, I'm telling you that Portland is the place. (Relatively) low cost of living, great politics & arts scene, lots and lots of great cheap (and expensive, if you like) food, nature, beer, coffee, way better public transit than Seattle and many other "big" cities, etc. I've lived in Chicago - Chicago is great, and if I weren't living here, I"d probably be there. But I've been here for 5 years & still haven't run out of things to do. Oh...and you can afford a nice house for under $250k.

I moved to Portland from Nebraska without ever visiting the place, having a job lined up, or even knowing anyone. And I often running into folks like me.

All cities have their issues and neighborhood loyalties. The Pearl District was redeveloped quickly over the last few years and, as evidenced above, it is not without its detractors--who often have reasonable objections. But being the sixth bloggiest neighborhood is certainly a good thing.

I now live in the Pearl District and will buy you a beer just as soon as you get here.

"Portland has most of the good things of SF and few of the bad things."

Portland had a few of the good things of SF, a few more of the the bad things and a few more bad things of it's own.

Good in both:
restaurants (Portland cheaper than SF).
public transit (worse in SF).

Bad in both SF and Portland:
too many honky-ass Trustafarians in both places.
limo liberal "politics".
crazy whackos in abundance.

Bad in Portland:
rains too much.
hicksville.
lots of white trash in the burbs and hills, some of them scary.
nowhere near as many jobs.
ugly women (well, not precisely ugly as seemingly unable to learn how to apply makeup).

"Well, if you can look past the overworn stinky hippie cliche"

Dude, do you ever ride the 38 or the F line? That ain't no cliche, that's some serious stinkiliciousness.

Hey Matt and loyal Mattites,

I'm a college student moving out to DC next year with a couple of friends. We will likely have relatively low paying government/public intrest jobs. Where would be a good neighborhood to live? D.C. is sooo expensive. I would really appreciate any advice.

And good call on the Bulls.

Which was weird first, Austin or Portland? I think the two cities have some sort of exchange program since I know several people who moved to Portland from Austin and about the same number of people in Austin who moved from Portland. If you don't mind 45 days of 100 degrees every year, then the Mueller develpment in Austin may be a place to look.

Lakeview is cool, but Chicago has a lot of other cool and affordable areas too. It is a very large town. Great restaurants, music scene second only to NYC, if that.

However, the notion that it's "like NYC" isn't really correct. They have very different vibes.

As for Europe: Vienna?! Way expensive, and the entire city feels like a mausoleum/monument to dead culture. Berlin is much cooler, and much less expensive.

Also (sorry for doubling): why would you move anywhere based on blogging activity? You can blog from anywhere, and read blogs from anywhere; why would it matter if you live in physical proximity to other bloggers?

Portland is super beautiful, and the moist mild weather keeps the Portlanders young and easy-going. But it's not an international city, and it's too far from the rest of America.

Seattle is where you visit if you aren't from the NW, Portland is where you live if such things as transit, cost, and "virbrancy" (or other silly term) mean something to you. And Powells, and having everything downtown including restaurants, museums, waterfront, markets, galleries (and yes, the Pearl district) being all close enough to walk to.

I live in Seattle, and I like it a lot. I also love Portland, and I think that Portland has more little neighborhoods where you can do what you want, have things you need, and be near enough to bigger things to do (concerts, museums, etc.).

I must say that Portland has a high learning curve for getting around (if you are in a car, as I often am since I drive from Seattle). The City of Bridges has, in fact, an assload of bridges, and lots of one-way streets and restricted turns, so one mistake can lead to being (literally) on the wrong side of the river (there are two) or town, with limited options for correcting your initial screw-up.

That said, MY, have you been out to the NW? Last I remember that was not the case. Get yer self out here and explore some NW cities. You hopefully will be impressed, but since you have been living in NYC, Boston, and DC, you might not be impressed at all. Portland and Seattle are not cities in the way you might be expecting. I love all those East Coast cities by the way, it's just that I am West Coaster. You might feel the same way about us as an East Coaster.

Shaw is the hipster area of DC right? Good place to live?

I have trouble believing that you're moving to Portland, but I hypothetically applaud the idea .

I would say that East side is definitely the place to go, perhaps Alberta.

It's one of the least stylish cities in the US (except when grunge was stylish), but I think that's a good thing. It's almost 80% white. For a small city, it has a lot of amenities and cultural shit, but it's not a major center.

It might be the easiest and pleasantest American city to live in, but you have to provide your own stimulation (lots of people do -- not just drugs, either, smartass). Lots of hip contemporary young-people stuff, granted that it's no "urban".

As a former (and hopefully soon to be returning) resident of Portland, I have to say that one of my favorite things about it is how hard it is to drive downtown. It's on purpose, you know, to keep people from driving in from the 'burbs or Seattle. As a result, you can cross against the light basically anywhere (except West Burnside) without worrying about it. Also, most of the two-lane streets are a bit narrower than they really should be, which is just awesome for pedestrians. And you can literally walk across town and back in a day when the weather is nice (which it is most of the year -- and it's not as if we have such pleasant winters here on the East Coast either). And parks! And neighborhood bars that aren't (just) full of depressing old guys in the middle of the afternoon!

Since we are throwing out some ideas here, I can tell you that Tallahassee, FL (where I am) should definitely not be included into the "move to" list. Not bad, but definitely not good. Anyone have any thoughts on the not mentioned (and not NW city) Denver, CO? What about Chico, CA? Sorry for the threadjack, just wondering.

/please forgive.

"As you indicated, first, the architecture is amazing. Some of the best coffee in the world, and the best coffee shops in the world (of course, that's a pretty uneducated statement, but whatevs). Great public transport, great walkability (for a sprawling city), tons of culture... it's the greatest. Nice cathedral too."

Yeah, but what you've described is pretty much every Central European city - not all have the architecture (mostly depending on how badly they got bombed in WWII - some really bad decisions in Cologne's rebuilding, I have to say) and some replace the coffee with beer. The difference is that Vienna is spendy and it's heart remains buried in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. If you're willing to lay out that much bread, just go to Geneva or Zurich. Anyway, Strasbourg or Prague have got Vienna's cathedral beat in the "late medieval architecture" sweepstakes.

The next American slacker hotspot in Europe? Leipzig. You heard it here first.

As a current resident of Chicago, I love everything about it except: (1) it's not really a late night city, but nowhere is compared to NYC; (2) the weather. Personally, I prefer the blisteringly cold winters to the blisteringly hot summers, but I yearn for a more temperate zone. It has both very not-metropolitan and very-metropolitan regions, and everyone other than my dad thinks I'm crazy when I say this, but I prefer Chicago metropolitan to Manhattan metropolitan (the hours aside). It's also got to be the best bang for your buck in the US as far as real metropolitan areas go.

As a former resident of San Francisco, I love everything about it; it's my favorite city I've ever been to. It's got to be the most expensive place in the US outside of Manhattan, though.

While I love Chicago, I'm at a point in my life where I think I'd benefit from a change of scenery; I'm considering either returning to SF (finding a job that pays double what I make now would be helpful) or somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. People have been talking up Portland at Seattle's expense, but if you're tied to a more metropolitan experience, I assume Seattle's the way to go?

Portland probably cannot compete with the cities of the Hanseatic League or the Holy Roman Empire, but I believe that Matt wants to stay in the US.

If not, in many respects Vancouver BC has Portland and Seattle whipped.

Where would be a good neighborhood to live? D.C. is sooo expensive. I would really appreciate any advice.

Patrick

Colombia Heights, far out Capitol Hill, Logan Circle are a little(sometimes just a little bit) cheaper then other urban areas and still have culture. Shaw isn't the most expensive either. Takoma/Takoma Park, Silver spring are also cheaper but not as much going on. Brookland is cheaper, same deal, worse crime. Anything in NE not close to the capital is cheaper. Also everything west of 16th St is expensive
It's not impossible to live far out in Montgomery or Prince George, but you might be only blogger on the block.

Hey guys, the whole thing about blogging is that blogging is non local. Who cares if there are bloggers in your neighborhood? They could be in Sarawak and your relationship with them would be the same. (There is a Dadaist blogger in Sarawak, as it happens).

Yeah, driving in Portland is weird. Every time I'm there (in a car) I seem to get lost and find myself forced to cross various bridges I have no idea if I actually want to cross. After about 20-30 minutes of aimless, confused wandering, I find myself on the Burnside bridge, which is ususally close to my destination or serves as a reorientation point. So my Portland advice is--if lost, wander aimlessly until you invariably find yourself on the Burnside bridge.

Or better yet, don't drive. I never get lost in Portland if I leave cars out of it.

withnail--may I apply for an exemption? My wife's from what I call "suburban Tangent" but I dragged her to Buffalo and she desparately wants to return to her home region, so it'd really be adding only one person, not two. I'll fit in, really! I vote Democratic, don't dress perfectly, and am fine with public transit. We've had only the one car here for three-plus years and if we can do it here, it'd be easy there!

Besides, SLC, it beats the hell out of snow six months a year, and the apartments out there all seem to have dishwashers! Throw in the Henry Weinhard's root beer and, well...

If you're willing to lay out that much bread, just go to Geneva or Zurich. Anyway, Strasbourg or Prague have got Vienna's cathedral beat in the "late medieval architecture" sweepstakes.

Boo.

Thanks Chrisb. Much obliged.

Gus,

I'll speak up for Chico. Awesome place, for a small town/college town. Yeah, a lot of the kids are meatheads, but the locals are, or were, pretty cool.

Still, it's a very small town. Not really a place you'd enjoy unless you're under 22 or over 35 and have kids.

I'm trying to figure out where to move - out of Texas. I want to be able to live without a car. And afford life at about $32k. Chicago seems the best choice. Anybody got any ideas?

1) we don't need any of your kind here in ecotopia yglesias!

2) stumptown has the best coffee!!!

Wait, why is Matt moving to Portland? All these comments, and nobody's asked that yet? Portland seems rather an odd place to be a political journalist.

wait, are you trying to say that the bitch isn't shitting us??? matt, michael totten & i should get us some beers in southeast.

My comments about driving in Portland are based on the fact that I don't live there, and as such have to use a care more than I should. I really like the fact that Portland is walk friendly/car nasty. I went to a concert down there and parked at a hotel and took transit and it was fanstastic. If you are there for even more than a day, a car is useless, that just isn't my situation.

As a Seattle person, I love this city, and it has more "wow" factor in terms of scenery (assuming it isn't raining and you can see stuff). It also has more of a city feel in a few places, but not most. Living in or near downtown does not strike me as a great existence, but I am afraid people used to real cities would find most residential areas to be a real drag, with not much going on. I don't find this, but I grew up in a small town in Easter Washington and have always lived in much smaller towns. So, to me, Seattle is big enough, but a real urban person would find it to feel more like a big town. It certainly is not NYC, or Philadelphia, or Boston, or probably even Providence (I mean that seriously).

Likewise, a lot of Portland's appeal to folks like me in Seattle is that it is even more town-ish. Its urban development plan in the downtown area is to be envied, but it is the neighborhoodiness that really appeals to folks like me. You have culture nearby, but the place you spend most of your time in (home) is also reassuringly boring and also with a few things to do. I say reassuringly boring because I am getting older and just having some peace and quiet and a bit of space to BBQ or have friends hang out is a nice thing.

Finally, I rent, and that is why I can live in Seattle. If I was hell-bent on owning a place, I would live in Portland, as it is less expensive. Both Seattle and Portland are rather cool places to live, provided you can accept the big-city limitations and enjoy the recreation (and in my case, family) nearby.

To the kids moving to DC soon:

If you want to afford a place in a decent neighborhood, plan to live with 3-6 other people. There's almost no other way to live in DC near Metro in a half-decent neighborhood on 30-40k/year job.

That said, relative cheapness can be found:
- near RFK stadium (no shops or bars, but Metro)
- just south of H Street NE/Cap Hill NE in general (no Metro, but good bus access and they just built 9 bars there which are now hipster central)
- S. Capitol Street near the new stadium (if you're willing to wait a year or two for it to get good).
- SW waterfront (a meh neighborhood, but you have Metro and the Arena stage)
- Petworth
- Shaw, east of where Matt lives

Just remember that DC is a geographically small town and as long as you live within a decent distance of downtown, things aren't that far away. You can get to the cool bar in a half hour or so on Metro, or for $10-15 by cab.

And for godsakes, don't you dare live in Arlington. That place will devour your soul.

word of advice to matt: portland is not good for the jews. also, how come he doesn't want to live in hillsboro or beaverton with their vibrant latino communities?

hey razib (you silly person!), your link is to Portland MAINE, not Oregon. We are tolerant of nearly everything here in Portland OR. Portland is mostly located in Multnomah County, which voted 78% for Kerry - so we are both green and blue.

Chicago is definitely the place to be. It's odd, but Chicago actually feels more urban than New York in some ways. Anyway, Chicago is much prettier and cleaner, and your money will go surprisingly far here. As for neighborhoods, it depends on how much nightlife you want. If you don't care much about nightlife, then consider Hyde Park. It's one of the most diverse neighborhoods in Chicago, and of course it has that college atmosphere. It's also Obama country (though hopefully DC will be Obama's home before long).

Portland's cool too, though. It seems odd that no one has mentioned that Portland is the beer capital of the world (maybe I missed it?). It has an insane number of breweries, including the infamous Rogue brewery. Also, it's worth mentioning that air pollution is MUCH worse for your health than most people imagine. It takes years off your life. Thanks to Portland's location and its near-constant drizzle, it's a much healthier place to live than NY (or, sadly, Chicago). It also has excellent fresh produce much of the year.

San Francisco is definitely the place to be, and Mill Valley is definitely the place to live. You can be 15 minutes outside San Francisco over the Golden Gate Bridge and live in a natural wonderworld where the air is so crisp and clean it's breathtaking.

Of course, it's very expensive to own in Mill Valley unless you're freaking rich, but it's a great place to rent, especially if you're just hanging for awhile. As a respected liberal writer/blogger, a guy like Matt could get a sweet room in a forest mansion with a hot tub for a very sweet deal.

The San Francisco neighborhoods are awesome too. There's great places in the Mission and lower Fillmore that are affordable and you can literally do something different in a different place every night of the year. And the food is amazing, as well as the cheap burritos.

Be leader, not a follower. Move to Detroit, others will follow, I'm certain.

I remember being in Oregon on vacation with my folks and getting asked by locals, not so friendlyish, if we were thinking of moving there. My dad explained that our California plates were a rental and we were just on vacation and everyone brightened up.

This might be a deal-killer. In Portland once met this guy from North Dakota, and he loved the place because it was halfway between a big city and a small town.

In a way, Portland has about as much of the best of both as you could get. Somewhere like Waco or Macon probably would have the worst of both. But if you're someone who "thrives on fast-paced urban life" (TM) you will hate Portland.

New Yawk is where I'd rather stay
I get allergic smelling hay
I just adore a penthouse view
Darling I love you but give me Park Avenue

Move to Detroit, others will follow, I'm certain.

Right now, this person is apparently the most prominent Detroit area blogger:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com

Maybe Matt and she could hang out . . .

As a four-year Portlander who came BACK to D.C., I can say these comments are pretty accurate. The Pearl is pretty much the dciest area of Portland. You'd like the Mississippi area better. Portland's great, but damn the rain, the rain...

Cause a blogger is a person in your neighborhood,
In your neighborhood, he's in your neighborhood.
And another blogger is a person in your neighborhood--
But they're not the people that you meet
When you're walking down the street
Because they're shut ins you'll never meet any day.

My neighborhood, Newton, MA, is number 4. Come on up and help move us up.

If Debbie Schlussel lives in Detroit proper, I'll eat my hat. That's what I was suggesting to Matt. For an actual Detroiter who blogs, this guy is cool. Eccentric, but cool.

http://www.detroitblog.org/

1. the land surrounding the city was designated farmland to control sprawl.

2. the entire Oregon coast is public property.

3. as far as the Pearl, most of the criticism is sour grapes. It is new, and it is expensive, but it also has some pretty fantastic rent-controlled buildings (though not as many as they promised) for people like my aunt, who is in her 60s, a teacher, and is single. Other than that, it is mostly afluent Oregonians (such as my parents) whose kids have long since moved out and who want to be closer to the city life; not Californian retirees.

It is an amazing case of revitalization, as downtown Portland went to shit in the 90s. What is now called the Pearl, when I was growing up, was an absolute wasteland, a safe haven for junkies and drug dealers. There were no homes, no businesses. This contrasts to many of the places mentioned by other posters (specifically NE), which are pretty amazing examples of rapid, large-scale gentrification of old black neighborhoods by an invasion of twenty-something white people who like to bitch about the richer white people in the Pearl in one of the thousands of new 'dive' bars that have sprung up there.

By every possible measure, the development of the Pearl is a major, major boon for Portland, especially downtown.

If Debbie Schlussel lives in Detroit proper, I'll eat my hat.

My copy of the Michigan Bar Directory gives her address in Southfield, a suburb. I said "Detroit area" quite deliberately--hardly anyone actually lives in Detroit itself, any more. Population down about 60% since the 60's . . .

Jeff at 12:44:
I'm trying to figure out where to move - out of Texas. I want to be able to live without a car. And afford life at about $32k. Chicago seems the best choice. Anybody got any ideas?

Chicago would work, but, echoing John Emerson above, Vancouver BC might also be worth checking out. Cheaper than Chicago, incredible natural scenery very close by, and arguably the best Asian food in North America.

Sorry Matt, you don't live in Shaw!

Just following up for Jeff at 12:44 -

You can absolutely live in Chicago without a car at about $32K; I'm living in Chicago without a car at $31K, in a studio in Lakeview*, and while everyone's got different standards for what "living" does or should entail, I'm pretty comfortable - I'm not a crazy extravagant guy, but I spend a fair amount on books, CDs, the occasional fantastic expensive restaurant (of which Chicago has many), and I'm still able to put away something resembling a decent savings every month. Coming from Texas**, I assume the summer heat isn't going to be a horrible new burden, but you might want to consider how you feel about -15 windchill.

* Which, as noted above, is anything but hip, while still being for my purposes cool. You trade in the overt hipsters for a higher yuppie/ex-frat quotient, especially when the Cubs are playing, but it's nice and I live around the corner from a fantastic used record store (Reckless Records).

** Of course, I don't know how far $32K goes where you are in Texas, which makes this sort of conversation hard to have.

Rogers Park in Chicago.

I don't really need to explain why, do I?

I grew up in Portland and would like to move back some day. Having lived in a number of other cities since then, including most of the big ones, only makes me appreciate Portland more.

Someone's probably already mentioned this, but Portland is the beer capital of the world. More breweries per capita than anywhere else, including Germany. And the beer is exceptionally good (I particularly recommend anything from the Deschutes Brewery). Every bar has dozens of different microbrews and there are a number movie theaters/bars where you can eat food, drink beer, and watch a movie all at the same time.

The weather--particularly from July to October--is fantastic. No humidity. And the winters, while drizzly, are mild.

If you want to live in the city proper, I'd suggest looking for a place on the East side of river. There are a lot of neighborhoods with personality over there that are less expensive than the Pearl District or the Northwest.

I'm from Chicago and live in Manhattan and I don't think its really helpful to compare Chicago to NYC---i.e., Chicago is not a milder, cheaper, less congested NYC. It is those things but it would be a mistake to think you would be getting a more manageable version of NYC. To name a few qualitative differences: the ethnic mix and race relations are different, the street food is different (think sausages and tacos not slices and cheap chinese), the local media is not as interesting, your level of anonymity is much lower, the physical experience of the city (there's a horizon and the lake is very cool) is very different, and you'll probably want to drive.

Oh . . . judging by the affection shown freedarko, I'd say Lakeview is not for you. Maybe Ukrainian Village or Noble Square (at least my memory of them), Logan Square or parts of Edgewater. And god bless the recommendation above for Hyde Park but bewarned, many, many people find it really boring (and you'd need a car).

All that being said . . . I vote for San Francisco.

Portland is an awesome place to live and the Pearl is pretty nice though a bit spendy. As mentioned above, the revitalization of the Pearl area was a major success of the last decade. It had been a pretty scummy place and it’s now full of hip shops, restaurants and lofts. There are nice places within walking/biking distance of the Pearl that are less expensive. Of course, a well-known media personality like Matt should live in either the Pearl or somewhere around 23rd (trendy third).

The food scene is really good here, excepting Chinese. (Nobody understands what happens when a Chinese restaurant opens here, but there seems to be a vortex of mediocrity that swallows the chef.) Good beer and coffee everywhere. A number of nice bakeries have opened in the last few years. Some of the best dance companies in the world come through Portland courtesy of White Bird. Good music is happening all the time. The weather is truly beautiful six months of the year.

This weekend we biked from the Pearl District down to Powell's, the best bookstore in the country. After spending some time there we biked to the open air Saturday Market for lunch. Afterwards, we biked along the waterfront till we connected with the Spring Water Trail, which is a 20 mile long bike trail that sort of cuts through Portland and takes you to a neighboring city. On the way back we stopped at a nice bakery in the Pearl for good coffee and macaroons (have to be eaten to be understood.) I am constantly amazed how many days we have like this living here.

Oh . . . judging by the affection shown freedarko, I'd say Lakeview is not for you.

Maybe yes, maybe no - Matt never actually asked about Chicago, whereas Jeff did, and I dunno how Jeff feels about Shoals and the Gang - but this is absolutely true:

Lakeview is not FreeDarko.

But, dude, neither is Hyde Park, unless you've confused FreeDarko with "awkward racial dynamics exacerbated by Fresh From Muncie UofC students who say 'Wow, I'm living in the ghetto now!'" HP is most emphatically not the ghetto. (It is, however, most emphatically *near* the ghetto.) It's kind of a weird place, though. I'd never want to live there again unless I had a car; the public transportation exists, but you're psychologically and geographically cut off from the city, and unless things have changed in the last year, the neighborhood lacks frilly eccentricities like "a decent grocery store." (Of course, one month after I moved to Lakeview the closest grocery store to me burned down, which has been a pain ever since, so my life hasn't gotten any better in that regard. Sometimes you really just do want a freaking car.)

Pearl District sucks, it's the pretentious part of town and everyone goes there because they're supposed to.

NW is nice, more upscale though slightly trendy (not a bad thing though).
SW is the nicest area though very family oriented.
N is run down.
SE is young and hip but its gets really annoying because you have to stare at nose rings everytime you leave your house (I moved from SE to SW recently and though I'm single and living alone it's quite nice)
S (sellwood area) is very nice - sort of the best eclectic mix of all of the above in my view.

probably been said in many comments but, seriously, don't move to portland if there's any chance you're SAD-susceptible. it almost killed me, and i grew up in DC, which isn't a particularly sunny place.

Q . . . Mostly I was trying to say that I maintain a lot of affection for Hyde Park but newbies should be warned that its isolated and many find it boring. And IMHO, Hyde Park has one of the best racial dynamics in the city, awkward as it may be at times. In terms of freedarko-ness, I can't really claim to be able to assign a freedarko-score to various Chicago nieghborhoods (and I apologize to anyone who may take offense at my speculation), but I would guess that Hyde Park is in the top quadrant. This is the nieghborhood, after all, that produced Mandy Patinkin and R. Kelly.

Portland is a wonderful place to live, but is lacking in policy jobs and policy orientation. Coming from DC, where everyone you meet is engaged on one policy topic or another, this was a bit of a shock. Green issues are an exception.

There is only one NYC, nothing else really comes close. San Francisco is the most beautiful city in the US, and probably in the best location. Los Angeles is the most underrated city - great music scene, cool underground theater, great neighborhoods, the beach, good looking people, etc. etc. Ignore the haters. Chicago is the most overrated city - livable and inexpensive sure, but very provincial and unstylish. My sister-in-law (from Portland, OR) couldn't stand how badly everyone was dressed and had to go back to New York to get a fashion fix. But Chicago may well be the greatest "American" city, as you can argue SF, LA and NYC are a little too far outside the American mainstream - and obesity and lack of style are certainly American traits that Chicago has in abundance. Philly is actually the coolest city in the US, mainly because so few people realize how cool it really is. Of course you'd have to fight Atrios to the death once you got there.

http://portlandmaps.com

You can find anything you want for any address: census info, crime stats, housing assessment histories, transit lines, environmental zoning, vicinity to parks or schools, noise pollution, earthquake zones, etc. It's a bit scary how much info they put out there but it's absolutely fascinating (at least to map geeks).

Finn -

HP is certainly home to an interesting racial dynamic. Most of the time it is indeed pretty cool, and I'd say 99% of the awkwardness is on the part of the students - both causing it and feeling it. (And obviously not all or even most students, but...) What I never decided was whether the neighborhood would be better or worse off without the university - would it become more like the worse neighborhoods around it (the manses up on Woodlawn notwithstanding) or would it flourish. I should say that I was a student at UofC and...have very mixed feelings, and a lot of negative opinions, about the school and its culture, so they definitely color my opinion of HP.

Portland is also a fantastic basketball town. Don't let the Jail Blazers era fool you; this city loves its basketball. And the team and support for it is on a serious upswing.

Still, you really shouldn't move here. It rains all the time and it's a total backwater compared to New York, DC, and Boston. It's really far from the East Coast. Go to Chicago or San Francisco or LA or stay in DC and leave Portland alone. Alone to its suckage. Yeah, that's it, leave it alone to its suckage.

Everyone thinks former Oregon Governor Tom McCall wasn't serious when he said:

"Come visit us again and again. This is a state of excitement. But for heaven's sake, don't move here to live."

Snort. As if we love living here and just don't want too many newcomers to ruin everything! But the truthiness is, he was giving you friendly and wise advice indeed.

You know how in most cities you have to search around for a while to find the "hip" part of town? I was in Portland last year for a wedding and it was a couple of days (and I was driving) before I found the unhip part of town. I am an educated, liberal 33-year-old white guy with no kids, so I guess I fit the demo, so it made for a good visit but a bit overwhelming.

Anyway, I scoff at your San Francisco Chinese restaurants, much less anything on the East coast. I live in Monterey Park, center of the L.A. Chinese culinary explosion.

one month after I moved to Lakeview the closest grocery store to me burned down, which has been a pain ever since

What about Treasure Island, "America's Most European Supermarket"?

Chicago is the most overrated city - livable and inexpensive sure, but very provincial and unstylish. My sister-in-law (from Portland, OR) couldn't stand how badly everyone was dressed and had to go back to New York to get a fashion fix.

If that isn't the most asinine, idiotic criterion for how to judge a city, I don't know what is. Why don't you just stick to Vice-magazine-reading affluent wannabe-subversive hipster bullshit paradises like Williamsburg. You jag bag.

San Francisco's nice if you like your weather sunny without being warm, and you hate having gears on your bike. No really, even with all the hills, I swear.

"If that isn't the most asinine, idiotic criterion for how to judge a city, I don't know what is."

Frankly, I agree entirely with the criticism you're responding to.

Chicago is a perfectly fine city if you can handle all the ugly people with lousy style.

I can't, so I don't live in Chicago. The exact same problem exists with even more provincial cities like Milwaukee and Philadelphia.

The quality of the random folks you see on the street is actually a highly important criteria for cities and neighborhoods in my book.

I don't know, people in London aren't very stylish at all and people in Berlin dress like cr@p.

I feel bad for the people who can't live places because they think there are a lot of ugly people. The shallowness in those statements is amazing and suggests a very empty existence. Also having to travel in order to get your "fashion fix" is beyond smug and trivial. Hopefully they will just stay in that abortion of a place Williamsburg and leave the rest of us alone to live a real life.

PDX really is paradise on Earth. If you are born there the weather doesn't get to you but if you aren't than god help you when April rolls around and you can count the number of times you have seen the sun that year on one hand.

kansas city's the bomb

I was trying to think of a lower-key way to say something like what cbc said, but that's beside the point now. Chicago is certainly less overtly "fashionable" than other cities, but that doesn't really matter to me; I guess my own "fashion" sense isn't finely enough attuned that I'm constantly affronted by the atrocities parading around in Chicago. OTOH, I certainly have no complaints about the number of *attractive* people in Chicago; I see more than enough on my bus to work in the morning. San Francisco, though, is brimming with gorgeousness.

"I feel bad for the people who can't live places because they think there are a lot of ugly people."

Some folks care about the weather in a city. Some folks care about the architecture in a city.

I care about the people in a city, so Chicago really isn't the place for me to live.

Thanks for feeling bad for me, though. You might want to also feel bad for all the ugly people populating Chicago. Life can't be easy for them.

"I certainly have no complaints about the number of *attractive* people in Chicago; I see more than enough on my bus to work in the morning. San Francisco, though, is brimming with gorgeousness."

Well, that's kinda the point right there.

No one is saying that there are no attractive people in Chicago. It just comes down to a matter of percentages, and the percentage in Chicago is notably lower than it is in a place like SF.

If the median level of attractiveness is an important quality for you, Chicago's got issues.

Portland and Seattle are not rainy, not really, cumulative rainfall is less than most other American cities and you would probably account more actual instances of rainfall in some place like Honolulu.

What they are are cloudy and dark. We have a weather term here which may well be unique to the Pacific Northwest: "Partial Sun Breaks". Where else in the world does the weatherman tell you that you just might possibly but not necessarily get a glimpse of the sun that day. So that person who warned you about Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) knows what she is talking about. If you don't mind being oddly moody for six months a year then this place is great.

I love Seattle. I was born here but moved while I was just a couple of weeks old. It took a total of four times relocating here before I finally stuck. I knew what I was doing. Then again my dermatologist would slap me around the head if I ever went out in the sun anyway.

We have two jokes here which are illustrative:

What do you do in the Pacific Northwest in the Summer? If it happens on a Sunday we have a picnic.

Oh my God! What is that flaming ball of fire in the sky!? Um, that is the sun.

Actually if you want to live in a really cool progressive town that is pretty wired I would suggest Bellingham. Smallish City (75,000) with our second most liberal public college (Western Wash U), pretty good music scene, all the beer and coffee referenced above, book stores. But best of all is its location. 30 miles from Vancouver BC, 75 miles by Interstate to Seattle, it is the jumping off point for the Alaska Ferry System, and is 25 miles west of a huge, beautiful snow covered volcano with excellent skiing.

But did I mention the cloud thing?

As a current Chicagoan (Uk Village) also currently in love with Portland, I'll admit that if I had a choice and a portable job, I'd switch to Portland in a second. Regarding the fashion comments above, I prefer the Uk Village/Wicker Park fashionistas to the type I saw in Portland a few months ago on a visit. Still, there are more women on bikes in OR.

It's the scenery outside the city that tips the balance though. I'm from the MIdwest and actually like flat cornfields, but hiking around Mt. Hood, then driving to the coast and experiencing the change in weather, hiking, and people is completely different from driving from Chicago to Wisconsin. I've lived in a small town (15k), and Chicago before and Portland felt like the former both from the compactness and walkability of the city center (downtown in other areas of the nation) and the "everyone knows you" vibe that the limitedness of the size gives you.

I keep dreaming of moving to OR, in Portland, before everyone else in the country discovers how amazing it is. Why haven't more people moved there? Lack of jobs?

Lived in Portland for many years. Many great things about it. Some not-great things about it. Some thoughts:

- Great walking downtown. But no need to live right downtown. I concur with the folks that said to check out the east side. Can live in a nice neighborhood there and be a 5-10 minute bike ride or 3 minute drive from downtown. Everything is 10 minutes away, as long as you live vaguely near town.
- Great beer (yes, Deschutes: Mirror Pond Ale, Black Butte Porter). And great and fast-improving wine country (best Pinots in the world).
- Great food. It's the Garden of Eden. Everything is grown and/or caught locally. Many great restaurants that are great simply because they serve local stuff without screwing it up (that's what "Northwest Cuisine" is all about). Spectacular farmers markets and grocery stores that put anything in DC to shame.
- Clean air. Incredibly clean, soft water (that's why the Chip companies love it).
- Beautiful scenary, amazing great-outdoors stuff nearby: The Gorge, the Cascades, the Beaches. Beautiful, uncrowded beaches, but the water's freezing. Good skiing nearby (Mt Hood). Better skiing 3 1/2 hours to Central OR (Mt Bachelor).
- Rain problem is over-rated, if you have any mobility and/or ingenuity and/or resilience. Go visit your friends in LA during the winter, go skiing, go East of the Cascades (90 minute drive), it's the high dessert there. Although, Matt, with all the bitching you like to do about the weather on blogging heads, you'll still have plenty to bitch about.
- Affordable, but not THAT affordable. Housing about 1/2.5 the cost of the DC area, but salaries are low by a similar proportion v. the big east-coast cities. Add it all up and Portland's ok but not great. A DC salary in Portland, now that'd be sweet.
- Heavily high-tech economy. Biggest employer: Intel. Not sure there are alot of high-paying jobs outside that sector.
- Yes, ultra-anti-fashion. Jeans at the cities finest restaurants. You may actually be looking for an excuse to wear a suit.
- Not the greatest place to be a single guy, imho. Ratio cats-to-chicks not great, ratio cats-to-hot-chicks even worse (especially compared to DC or NYC). Ratio lesbians-to-cats pretty darned high (not that there's anything wrong with that).
- Lowest proportion of minorities of any of the 50 largest cities in the country.
- Whitest crowd in the NBA.

For median attractiveness, nothing really compares to NYC.

No one has mentioned that Portland has more strip clubs per capita than anywhere in the US, even Las Vegas and Reno. One spinoff is that there's a reasonable chance that some of the women you meet will have tried their hand at stripping at some point (no, they're not all stupid junkies).

There's a tavern in Bellingham which three different serial killers have been a regular at (John Muhammed the DC sniper, Ted Bundy, and Kenneth Bianchi the Hillside Strangler and one other.) Bellingham is also one of the world centers of Mongol studies. You have to wonder whether the Green River Killer and the I-5 killer also stopped by.

In my last extended stay in Bellingham I rented the room John Muhammed lived in during his stay in Bellingham. I also know that bar well.

I believe the WWU library's ancient Mongolian texts collection is the largest in the world, after Ulan Bator and Oxford. Why, precisely, this is the case is shrouded in mystery, but I think it has something to do with a rogue acquisitions employee (who was an amateur Mongolian scholar) abusing his powers, and powerful Mongolian politician who kept a second home in Bellingham.

Henry Schwartz at WWU is an important Mongol scholar, and I think that WWU has received some major bequests from his friends and colleagues. (The competition, believe it or not, would have been Indiana-Bloomington). I may have met the rogue librarian, who's a fun guy. WWU does not support Mongol Studies very entusiastically.

Yale has way hotter people than Harvard. Guess you missed out,
Matt. After all, attractiveness is the most important quality in people. That's how you tell if they're good people or not, how hot they are. Right Petey?

"No one has mentioned that Portland has more strip clubs per capita than anywhere in the US ... There's a tavern in Bellingham which three different serial killers have been a regular at"

Blame it on the rain.

"After all, attractiveness is the most important quality in people. That's how you tell if they're good people or not, how hot they are. Right Petey?"

In my experience, folks who are lacking in attractiveness, (which generally stems from a problem with style, not a problem with genetics), also tend to be lacking in the social graces.

That may not make them bad people, but it does make them less fun to spend time around.

In my experience, folks who are lacking in attractiveness, (which generally stems from a problem with style, not a problem with genetics), also tend to be lacking in the social graces.

That may not make them bad people, but it does make them less fun to spend time around.

Wow.

Totally, absolutely, incredibly wrong. Beyond wrong. Wrong to the nth power. Wrong in every conceivable way. Wrong forwards, backwards and side to side. Essence "wrong". So wrong it passes through wrong, into right, and comes out in wrong again.

Let's take your average attractive girl. She's never had to work for anything because she's people are falling all over themselves to give her what she wants. She doesn't need to read or work to get good grades. She doesn't have to be competent to
get advanced at work. She has a totally inflated sense of her own intelligence, depth and humor, because guys are constantly telling girls that they are smart, deep and funny in an effort to get in their pants. In short, she is incredibly arrogant but doesn't know why. She combines the sin of ego with the sin of lacking self knowledge.

Also-- attractive people have high self-esteem. People who have high self-esteem are douchebags.

"People who have high self-esteem are douchebags."

OK. So you have low self-esteem and thus don't like pretty girls.

Personally, I'm happier when I walk amongst folks of both sexes who like they'd be fun to get to know. But you are entirely correct that part of that is that I have good self-esteem and thus think that I'd be fun to get to know.

If I thought I was awful, I'm sure that fun looking folks would intimidate me too.

(May I suggest that you'd love living in Philadelphia. No one in that city has ever been accused of having high self-esteem. They put chemicals in the water that wash the self-esteem right out of folks.)

This is insanity. You can only be fun if you are attractive? That is refuted by every shred of evidence.

I like pretty girls who are quality human beings. There are many like that. There are many more who aren't. What I really dislike is someone cheerleading for our horrendous cultural emphasis on physical attraction, while pretending that he's some sort of iconoclast while doing so. Enjoy your subscription to US Weekly.

Thank God the world has seen such hotties as Mahatma Gandhi, Albert Einstein, and Mother Theresa. Where would we be without attractive people like them?

For median attractiveness, nothing really compares to NYC.

I live in NYC so ought not be the one to dispute this, but dontcha think some folks in various places in California might disagree?

Matt

I grew up near Portland and went to school there back in the 80s when it was less a world center of coolness. Went to grad school in Seattle and since then have lived and worked in Seattle, Portland, Washington DC, Juneau AK, Miami, San Francisco, Fort Worth, and Austin and have traveled at various times to most of the other north american cities that make these sorts of lists.

Yes, Portland is a great place to live if you have some purpose to be there, like school, or if you work for Nike, Intel, or some other local company. But my sincere advice is to forget all the advice you read on this thread, get yourself a decent vehicle and laptop with a wireless cellular card, and take your blog on the road to discover the country for yourself. You will never be younger and more free than you are now. I spent a good deal of my early 20s driving around the country in an old honda and learned far more about it that way than I ever could have reading blogs.

A vehicle is essential as most of the country is inaccessible by public transport. And a good cellular wireless card is necessary to keep you out of the internet cafes and visiting more interesting places.

I sort of admire Petey for actually defending his shallow, douchebaggy worldview in which the quality of a people can be measured by their stylishness, rather than slinking away.

When visiting Portland I went to the Doug Fir hipster bar and saw two different hot-looking chicks (they weren't hanging out together or anything) wearing identical t-shirts that read "FUCK L.A." I felt like questioning them on the reasoning behind this statement, but the place was too crowded.

Anyway, L.A. is a great place, but to be honest I get sick of the sun shining all the time. I like the weather a lot better in the Pacific Northwest, although the variance in day length is kind of off-putting.

This is insanity. You can only be fun if you are attractive? That is refuted by every shred of evidence. ... Thank God the world has seen such hotties as Mahatma Gandhi, Albert Einstein, and Mother Theresa.

The claim was that less attractive people are less fun. I don't know whether that's true or not, but I kinda doubt Mother Theresa was one of the most fun people to be around.

I am afraid a lot of you have it all wrong - Chicago's lack of style is a sign of just how shallow a place it is. If you loved your fraternity at U of Illinois, you'll love Chicago. People who care so little about their personal appearance that they'll walk around in sports sweatshirts, baseball caps, generic jeans and sneakers tend to care about very little except sports teams, cars and partying, oh and maybe golf. There's a reason why people with a reputation for being deep - like Russians, French or Germans - tend to pay a lot attention to style. People in Portland aren't fashion plates in the Paris/Milan sense, but at least being a punk or hippie is a style, it shows you've given some thought to the world and your place in it. People in Chicago look like they've been stamped out of a Sky Mall catalogue. At some level people in Chicago understand that they are missing something in their lives and they've tried to compensate with architecture - which admittedly is very good. And comedy, which of course is a way to pretend to be deep while actually being shallow - no accident that Chicago is such a hotbed of comedy. And of course these criticims are too harsh - there's lots of cool stuff in Chicago, but it's not up there with LA and NYC as a happening creative place, and it never will be. Also the Chicago accent is awful, worse than Boston or New York.

People in Chicago look like they've been stamped out of a Sky Mall catalogue.

Since we're operating at a useless level of generality: people who put forward this sort of useless generalization are generally stupid.

but at least being a punk or hippie is a style, it shows you've given some thought to the world and your place in it.

Now, this here... this is truly through the looking glass. If you adopt a "style" that is so commodified and rehearsed that it can be described in a single word, that makes you deep? If I go to Hot Topic and buy the goth uniform, I've become a better person? This worship of affect is incredible.

Portlands a great city, maybe a little less weird than Austin but with a much better climate (come out here in the summer and you'll never leave - usually in the 80's and no humidity). As for fashion all I can say is when I got off the subway at Williamsburg I thought I was back in NE Portland (which is where any self respecting mid 20's person would want to live though it is hard to find any area of the city which doesn't have it charms).

"I live in NYC so ought not be the one to dispute this, but dontcha think some folks in various places in California might disagree?"

I lived in Los Angeles (pronounced with a hard "g", por favor) for a bit, and I was taken aback at the relative lack of attractiveness there, as compared to a place like NYC.

Everyone out there is slim. Everyone has at least some vague idea of style. (It's miles ahead of Chicago, in other words.) But I thought the median attractiveness factor was stunningly low, given the reputation.

LA was the place that taught me that there is a distinction between "classically pretty/handsome" and "attractive". Or in other words, I'll take the chicks in the bar wearing the "FUCK L.A." shirts over the folks in West LA every single time.

While there is, of course, some drift of remarkably attractive people to the kind of places where they might have careers that trade on their remarkable attractiveness, in my experience and estimation most of it ends up averaging out once you control for makeup and clothing. And since, unlike Petey, my primary interest in a person's attractiveness has to do with time we might be spending together without much makeup or clothing, it just matters a lot less to me.

"And since, unlike Petey, my primary interest in a person's attractiveness has to do with time we might be spending together without much makeup or clothing, it just matters a lot less to me."

If they don't know how to dress themselves, other problems are sure to follow.

Style is a proxy for all kinds of interpersonal interactions, including sex.

how is it that the biggest weather whiners on this thread are from SF, where it can be as cold in the summer as it is in the winter? nothing can ruin a nice summer day as going over the hill in shorts and a t-shirt, and finding yourself engulfed in bone chilling, windy fog.

if you can handle the sweltering, humid DC summers, then you can handle the nov-april rain in pdx--the only difference is that you'll get slightly wet on the outside layer of your clothes rather than under the inside layer. the rain is more of a heavy mist or light drizzle than a real rain--you can tell the tourists by their umbrellas. the other bonus of rain, is that unlike the rest of the west, which is a desert, there is no water supply issue.

culturally, other commenters are right, if you go little bit east, you're basically in west idaho. i think it's pretty cool. as far as being welcomed here, the only people who care are the californians who moved here 2 years before you, and want to project their anti-californication attitude.

as for beer, how is it that no one has mentionioned the ipa?? the hops are grown right here, and are put in the beer practically right off the vine. the world's best award winning ipa is brewed right here by bridgeport, and that's just one of dozens that are just as good in their own way.

as for where to live? pick any location that is within walking distance to a stumptown coffee, even the pearl.

You pronounce "Los Angeles" with a hard G? Who on earth does that?

Incidentally, I hardly ever spend any time in West L.A. But everybody's idea of what is attractive is different. I prefer girls with fat butts in tight jeans.

As an ex-midwesterner, I'm amused by all this discussion of the alleged unattractiveness of Chicagoans.

Here's the thing... Chicago is a big fucking city. Vanya describes the suburban commuter set with deadly accuracy. Petey nails the White Sox fan base with deadly accuracy. Then there's, you know, the entire rest of the city. Hipster enclaves, punks, tux-wearing ballet patrons, fashionistas, queer bikers, swanky jazz clubs, you name it. New York it ain't, but if you can't find the scene you're looking for in Chicago, you're probably not trying very hard.

"You pronounce "Los Angeles" with a hard G? Who on earth does that?"

Such affectations are just fine when you live thousands of miles away from a place. It would get annoying quick if I had such an affectation while actually living in the Southland.

And as to who on earth does that - Frank Black and lots of people from 1940's movies.

"But everybody's idea of what is attractive is different. I prefer girls with fat butts in tight jeans."

FWIW, "attractive" is a much broader term than "sexy" to me. I find lots of folks attractive who I don't find particularly sexy - guys, for one notable example, as well as lots of girls who don't fit my particular sexual profile.

So while everyone is going to have their own sexual fetishes, I tend to find that most folks with decent style are usually in agreement about which other folks have decent style.

According to a 1978 ruling by Oregon Supreme Court Justice Hans Linde, stripping is one of the rights protected by the Orgon Constitution's very broad free speech clause. That's the real reason.

Stripping is a protected constituional right in Oregon. In 1978 Supreme Court Justice Hans Linde established that Oregon's Bill of Rights (binding the state government) is broader than the US Bill of Rights, and in 1987 stripping was declared to be a right by a second decision.

That's the real reason.

Whoops. The scond statement is the more accurate.

re: Los AnGeles, w/the hard "g" - also, in homage to said 40s movies, various Coen Bros. characters (Buscemi's bellhop in Barton Fink, the narrator in Big Lebowski). But I thought Frank Black's Los AnGeles wasn't the one in California, but rather one in Patagonia.

And I know Petey knows how amusingly recursive this

I tend to find that most folks with decent style are usually in agreement about which other folks have decent style.

is.

Come on out, Matt. The beer's great, and you can live pretty cheap in the suburbs. A 20 minute drive to the Pearl, or a 30 minute light rail and trolley ride.

Go to the farmer's market on a hot August day if you want pretty girls dressed in not much, LA style. When it's raining, they mostly wear raincoats.

The rain keeps the riffraff out.

The young generation of Portlanders needs you to encourage their political involvement.

Freddie, I can't believe someone like you could even appreciate Vienna. Talk about a city that worships style. Vienna is probably 180 degrees away from Chicago in attitude toward life, frankly not always to Vienna's favor. But you appear to be trapped in that Chicago mid-American mindset that aesthetics and fashion have no intrinsic value. I have to say on this thread at least you have comported yourself like the typical Chicagoan - embarassingly boosterish, a Babbit-like attitude towards non-conformity, and prone to lash out at people who disagree with you. I suppose I should thank you for proving my point.

I hope all of these commentors are attractive. I only read blogs that have attractive readers. It makes the comments more interesting and intelligent.

Portland is the coolest city in America, bar none. Highest per capita brew pubs, strip clubs and bars of any American city. What more could you ask for?

Also, you're going to want to move to the Hawthrone/Belmont area. If you get lucky, you could live on the same street as James Mercer from the Shins, and Isaac Brock from Modest Mouse. Don't let people tell you the ladies here aren't sexy. They're just indie, but if you're into that it's a goldmine.

a Babbit-like attitude towards non-conformity

Dude, being "stylish" in the myopic way you and Petey define is conformity. It's the ultimate in conformity.

Now please, answer the question: how is conforming to commodified styles like mall-punk or "the unique guy" an act of subversion?

Strangely, given where we are here, there's been very little mention of the progressive politics of Portland. It's that, the planning, the urban growth boundary, etc., that has led many to dub Portland the most Canadian or European city in the US. There are property-rights activists who have been trying to chip away at the growth boundary, and similar regulation, and I believe they have had some successes.

Also, anti-tax zealots had quite a bit of success with property-tax freezes and the like via ballot measures during the tech boom years, which, when the boom turned to a bust, left the schools in such dire straights that Doonesbury did an entire week on the Portland public schools. That was maybe 3 years ago.

And of course you have Portland's most famous citizens: Tanya Harding, Bob Packwood, Neil Goldschmidt,...

"There's a reason why people with a reputation for being deep - like Russians, French or Germans - tend to pay a lot attention to style."

It's hard to take anybody who writes anything like this seriously.

Germans?!? You mean, the land where people wear orange pants with matching orange socks under Birkenstocks? The place where people regularly wear three or four separate pieces of matching green clothing? The average really deep German (university professor, perhaps) looks pretty much exactly like his counterpart anywhere in the USA, except for the extraordinary poor taste in colors.

Russians aren't really that deep and they certainly aren't stylish. It's true that there's a small elite that pays a great deal of attention to appearance, but that elite is certainly not what anybody would call "deep". "criminal", "brutal", "sociopathic" or "wily", perhaps. Not deep.

Someone who is promoting "stylishness" and specifically highlights Germans and Russians...........has a certain lack of credibility.

"But I thought Frank Black's Los AnGeles wasn't the one in California, but rather one in Patagonia."

South Patagonia, por favor.

As far as I'm concerned, I'll wait in the pouring sun.

"But I thought Frank Black's Los AnGeles wasn't the one in California"

And for those who like badly filmed visual aids, here ya' go.

South Patagonia

Nitpicking, but Los Angeles is not in South Patagonia. In fact, it's not in Patagonia at all; it is somewhat north of Patagonia in both Chile and Argentina.

/pedant

"Nitpicking, but Los Angeles is not in South Patagonia. In fact, it's not in Patagonia at all; it is somewhat north of Patagonia in both Chile and Argentina."

Cool. Now, can you explain where Moleville is located?

Ramona.

Speaking of Russians, sort of, anybody else been following the Kirilenko saga? As we all knew, Jerry Sloan is a complete fucking asshole. A total shitbag.

Anyway, I hope Kirilenko gets out. There are a ton of teams I would love to see him play for. Does he have a shitty contract? Because I've heard the Suns might not be able to resign Marion. Kirilenko would be the perfect replacement.

Shit, I almost forgot: Go Warriors!

Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but Portland is the least church-going city in America (very good thing). Unfortunately, I've never lived in a place with uglier women. Sorry, it's true.

actually, medford is the least church-going city. but portland is probably the least church-going big(ish)city

Move to No-Po! North Portland is where to live! I just bought a house in the St. Johns neighborhood and love it... who knows - it may or may not ever become the happening area like Hawthorne, Alberta, or NW 23rd/21st - but I can always hope! Portland is the cheapest, best place to live on the West Coast. And why does everyone think the girls here are ugly? My girlfriends are almost all down to earth, outdoorsy, naturally pretty girls and we love to drink good beer & good bourbon, go hiking, dance to live music... and all while wearing high heels (maybe not the hiking part...) - doesn't that seem better then some girly girl who doesn't want to break a nail and fake-n-bakes with bleach blonde hair?!

abbotelect@yahoo.com
Pioneer CDJ-100s CD Player .......$130
Pioneer CDJ-1000 CD Player........$450
Pioneer CMX-3000 Twin CD Player...$700
Pioneer CDJ-800 CD Player.........$300
Pioneer CDJ-1000MK2...............$450
Pioneer CDJ-200 MP3 CD Player ....$130
Pioneer CDJ-800MK2................$400
Pioneer CDJ-1000mk2...............$500
Pioneer CDJ-1000MK3...............$500
Pioneer CDJ-500 CD-Player.........$500
Pioneer CDJ-500II CD-Player.......$200
Pioneer CDJ-500s..................$100

Pioneer DJM-1000 ................$800
Pioneer DJM-800..................$600
Pioneer DJM-400..................$200
Pioneer DJM-300(s) Mixer ........$100
Pioneer DJM-600 Mixer ...........$500
Pioneer DJM-3000 19" Mixer ......$300
Pioneer DJM-600-S Mixer..........$1000
Pioneer DJM-909 Battle Mixer.....$600
Technics SL-1200MK2.................$600
Technics SL-DZ 1200..................$300
Technics SL-1210M5G Pro Turntable.. .$350
Technics SL-1210MK2 Turntable $150
Technics SL-1210MK5 Pro Turntable ...$250

Pioneer EFX-500.................$200
Pioneer EFX-1000 Pro-Effector..$350
Pioneer EFX-500-R..............$200
Pioneer DVJ-X1 DVD Player......$900
Pioneer DVJ-1000...............$1200
Pioneer VSW-1 Video Switcher ..$150
Pioneer DMP-555 MultiMedia Player..$330

SPEAKER
2 JBL PRX515 (15" 2 - Way Self-Powered Sound)....$400
2 JBL PRX518S (18" Self Powered Subwoofer System)....$420

Headphone

Denon DN-HP1000 Professional DJ Headphones $80
Pioneer HDJ-1000 Pro DJ Headphones $90
Stanton DJ Pro 2000S Headphones $50

abbotelect@yahoo.com

abbotelect@yahoo.com
Pioneer CDJ-100s CD Player .......$130
Pioneer CDJ-1000 CD Player........$450
Pioneer CMX-3000 Twin CD Player...$700
Pioneer CDJ-800 CD Player.........$300
Pioneer CDJ-1000MK2...............$450
Pioneer CDJ-200 MP3 CD Player ....$130
Pioneer CDJ-800MK2................$400
Pioneer CDJ-1000mk2...............$500
Pioneer CDJ-1000MK3...............$500
Pioneer CDJ-500 CD-Player.........$500
Pioneer CDJ-500II CD-Player.......$200
Pioneer CDJ-500s..................$100

Pioneer DJM-1000 ................$800
Pioneer DJM-800..................$600
Pioneer DJM-400..................$200
Pioneer DJM-300(s) Mixer ........$100
Pioneer DJM-600 Mixer ...........$500
Pioneer DJM-3000 19" Mixer ......$300
Pioneer DJM-600-S Mixer..........$1000
Pioneer DJM-909 Battle Mixer.....$600
Technics SL-1200MK2.................$600
Technics SL-DZ 1200..................$300
Technics SL-1210M5G Pro Turntable.. .$350
Technics SL-1210MK2 Turntable $150
Technics SL-1210MK5 Pro Turntable ...$250

Pioneer EFX-500.................$200
Pioneer EFX-1000 Pro-Effector..$350
Pioneer EFX-500-R..............$200
Pioneer DVJ-X1 DVD Player......$900
Pioneer DVJ-1000...............$1200
Pioneer VSW-1 Video Switcher ..$150
Pioneer DMP-555 MultiMedia Player..$330

SPEAKER
2 JBL PRX515 (15" 2 - Way Self-Powered Sound)....$400
2 JBL PRX518S (18" Self Powered Subwoofer System)....$420

Headphone

Denon DN-HP1000 Professional DJ Headphones $80
Pioneer HDJ-1000 Pro DJ Headphones $90
Stanton DJ Pro 2000S Headphones $50

abbotelect@yahoo.com

Good comment.Thanks admin.

ARE YOU STILL SELLING THE PIONERR EFX 500????